Continued from link WARNING: MAJOR SPOILERS AHEAD FOR THE ENDING OF THE MANGA/BROTHERHOOD! Don't read unless you don't mind spoilers!
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NaokoElric writes...
"I mean in chapter 84, Edward tells her to bake him as maçã, apple pie and keep it warm for him and she agrees! I mean, in reality, Edward was saying, as AveriaAlexandros puts, "Get back in the cozinha and make an maçã, apple pie for me" and Winry was responding, "Of course, I'll do something stereotypical and sexist as you're my man and must tell me what to do."
I think you completely missed the point of that scene. I encourage you to look back a few pages and reread the conversation they had. Keep that context in mind, and you'll see there's a far deeper meaning to the "apple pie" thing. When Edward said to keep an maçã, apple pie warm for him, he wasn't telling her to "get back in the kitchen". He was clearly promising her that he wouldn't give up, and that no matter what, hope would prevail and he would come início to her in one piece. Likewise, Winry didn't agree because he was "her man telling her what to do". It was her way of saying, "Alright. I'm trusting you to keep that promise, and I'll keep believing in you." Symbolism, people! =D
"She is also the only important character who does not directly witness Edward returning Alphonse from the gate, his body restored, in chapter 108 while every other important character does (Mustang, Hawkeye, Ling, Ran fã and Mei) and some unimportant characters (the Chimeras). That just is not fair, considering the fact that she is their CHILDHOOD FRIEND!"
I do kinda wish Winry had played a bigger role in the ending. However, she wouldn't have been much use in the final battle, and dragging her all the way there just to see Alphonse come out of the Gate would have seemed awkward and pointless, plot-wise. I also have the feeling that Ed wouldn't have wanted her to see Al before he recovered his strength and health. He wanted her to see both of them fully alive and kicking...and that's exactly what she got. And I wouldn't trade that glorious Golden Trio glomp panel for anything in the world. =3
"Let us not forget about that scene where Winry first met Scar, learns he killed her parents. Instead of being strong and confronting him in a Valente manner, she started bloody crying, sunk to her knees, looking pathetic and weak, despite the fact that she picked up a gun and contemplated shooting him!"
I think that's extremely unfair. Context - she's been bottling up grief over her parents for years. Then she sees her two closest friends fighting for their lives against a dangerous serial killer, who she just found out murdered her own parents, even though they saved him. All of that fear, shock, horror and anguish, hitting her all at once, like an emotional hurricaine. Of course she'd cry! Who wouldn't in her shoes? She's human. She has emotions, vulnerabilities and weaknesses - just like Ed and Al, Roy, Riza, Havoc, Izumi, Ling, Hohenheim and every other character who's cried or fallen apart. If you think Winry's pathetic for it, you should judge the others accordingly too.
"To make this is even mais sexist, it was the boy (Edward) that had to jump in front of the girl (Winry) and protect her. The boy had to get the girl to put the gun down. The boy who had to comfort the girl while she cried her little coração out like a baby!"
In vol. 4, when Winry witnessed Ed dealing with the pain of his automail surgery, crying out his guilt and fear that Al blamed him for everything, I didn't see a girl comforting and reassuring a boy. I saw a friend being there for another friend and hurting along with him.
Likewise in vol. 12, when Ed stopped Winry from shooting Scar and held her when she cried, I didn't see a boy saving and comforting a girl. I saw two, hurt, scared young people clinging to each other in the midst of a painful, insane world. Again, I saw a friend being there for another friend and hurting along with her.
I see absolutely nothing pathetic or sexist about that. In addition, I amor how Ed tells her why she couldn't shoot. It wasn't because she was too weak, but rather because of her inner strength and integrity. "Your hands aren't meant for killing...they're for saving lives." In other words, she couldn't pull the trigger because it wasn't who she was (just like Ed also couldn't pull the trigger at Envy's true form. It's not just a girl thing!) He didn't want her to betray herself or do something that would haunt her the rest of her life, and that's why he stopped her...NOT because "you're a girl and therefore can't fight".
"The girl had to be left in the protection of the Military, as if she could not protect herself! How you could write this, Arakawa-sensei? How could you make our own gender look so pathetic?"
Um...the military is SUPPOSED to protect people. That's their job. And do you really think Ed would hold her through her trauma and then just thoughtlessly cast her aside to deal with it alone and go gallivanting off to fight some more? Speaking from experience, you can't just instantly bounce back from something so painful and magically get all strong and better and "I can take care of myself" again. It's draining, emotionally and physically. You need time to deal with it and pull yourself together. He left his dearest friend with the military because he knew she needed that; because he cared about her and wanted to make sure she'd be safe, just like ANY good friend would do. It's not pathetic; it's life, and it happens to everyone no matter what gender they are. Arakawa knows it and shows it.
"At least in the 2003 Anime, the "Winry meets her parent's killer" scene played out much better. Instead of breaking down in tears, Winry was strong and refused to cry, as she did not want to be a burden. That is very non-sexist."
Once again, context. The characters of the killers and the ways she found out about it are completely different. In the manga, it hits her all at once without warning, and the killer is a amargo, amarga stranger bent on revenge. In the anime, she has mais control over the situation. She puts the pieces together and figures it out herself, and the killer is someone she knows and respects. So of course her reaction would be quieter. Also, she DOES cry about it, when she's at Gracia's house and sees a picture of Roy and Hughes on the table. (Can't remember which episode exactly, but it's there.)
"Arakawa-sensei was also hypocritical, as she made Winry previously say something along the lines of "I don't want to wait anymore". However, she contradicted that when she had Winry return to Rizenbul and stay there."
You do have a bit of a point there. However, she didn't make Winry return right away. Winry said that because she wanted to help Ed and Al and everyone else, and when it was clear she'd done her part and didn't need to travel around anymore, she went back início to be with her grandma again. Remember, that's mainly where her life and her work is. She wasn't returning solely to "wait" for Ed and Al some more; she was returning to carry on with her own, normal life.
"Thus, we are back to the "A male/a group of males go on adventures to reach a goal, while the female friend/love interest, oblivious as to what is happening, waits at home" situation, and I hate that!"
I've already given my two cents about that, so I won't repeat myself. I don't mind the "trope", but if it's not your thing, that's fine.
"At least in the 2003 she actually does things other than repairing automail and crying. She interacts with mais people (e.g. Roy and Sciezka) and does a lot mais on her own. For example, she tapped Julia Douglas/Sloth's phone lines and she and Sciezka did investigating on her own. She even had her own little story apart from the Elric Brothers."
She travels and interacts with a lot of people in the manga, too! In Rush Valley she reforms a pickpocket (let's not forget Paninya!), delivers a baby (saving the lives of the mother AND child), finds a good apprenticeship and makes many new friends. In Briggs, she learns of her hostage situation and uses her head to get out of it. She settles things with Scar and comes up with a way to escape from Kimblee. She also goes to Liore with Al, meets the brothers' father and makes friends with Rose. So I personally think both Winrys have done a lot of cool and courageous things.
"Winry should have been male, yet still have been in the same situation, and go though same things in the mangá I had issues with, as, with Winry being male, it would no longer be sexist to us women."
I don't care who's a boy or who's a girl. I don't care who has the higher military rank, who cooks, who fights, who cries, who comforts or who saves who. Because to me, FMA isn't about genders...it's about people. Human beings with fears, hopes, dreams, doubts, virtues and failings, all lifting and helping each other in different ways and going through the same pain together. I think these things are universal to everyone, and that every individual has their own personality and reacts to things differently. And thus, I don't see sexism anywhere with Winry. I see her as her own person, not a caricature or a stereotype. But I won't bash you for saying differently.
"Now I will talk about the seguinte two characters in my rant: Roy mustang and Riza Hawkeye. Firstly, why did Arakawa-sensei make the woman the subordinate, and the man the powerful State Alchemist (well expect that he is useless in the rain) and Superior Officer/Boss?"
He does have a whole bunch of men subordinates too. And out of his entire crew, Riza - the woman - is the closest and most important to him. And just because he has a higher rank than her doesn't mean they aren't equal or that they don't respect each other (which to me defines whether or not something is sexist). He may give the orders, but she isn't without power herself; and the only reason why she "follows" him is because they both happen to be going in the same direction, chasing the same dream. Riza almost literally holds his life in her hands. He specifically gives her the order to watch his back and shoot him if he strays from their goal - in other words, she has power over his very life. I see nothing sexist about that. On the contrary, I see them as a very powerful team.
"Furthermore, even though she is a tough gunslinger, Riza was turned into a bit of a Damsel in Distress as The Führer made her, like Winry to Edward, a hostage to keep Roy in check."
And just like with Winry's case, I believe it's because she is the person closest and dearest to Roy, not because she's a "helpless woman".
"She was also twice made into a complete Damsel in Distress when she was attacked por Gluttony, and later, when her throat was slit. She was saved on both occasions, despite her skills, the first time (the Gluttony one) por men!"
Let's think about this - the first time, she's in a cramped space, armed only with her rifle (which can't do much damage against a humunculous) and no alchemy. Realistically, what could anyone have done against Gluttony in that scenario? Also, she wasn't alone. She had a man with her - Fuery, if I recall correctly - and even when he teamed up with her, they couldn't defeat Gluttony. Roy wasn't just saving Riza; he was saving two subordinates that he cared about. And the segundo time, she isn't saved por a man, but por Mei, another female. Explain to me how that is sexist.
"Then there is Riza crying when she thought Roy was dead. I mean do we ever get a scene where the man is crying and screaming because he thinks the woman he loves is dead?"
We get Roy screaming and freaking out when Riza's throat gets slit. We also see him crying at Hughes's funeral and going crazy when he tries to take revenge on Envy. All instances were pretty intense and emotional, if you ask me. And let's not forget Hohenheim, who openly cried about Trisha - multiple times. Or Ling, who breaks down in tears when his grandfather suffers a mortal wound and dies.
"Even if there is a scene like that, the man does not cry most of the tine. Another example of Arakawa-sensei's self-sexism."
I see it as realism, not sexism. The fact is, in general (there are always exceptions based on everyone's individual personality)...guys don't tend to cry as often as girls. (No, don't roll your eyes and look away; hear me out.) It's not that they can't, or that doing so is "unmanly" or a bad thing at all...they just don't. It's not how they're usually wired or how they deal with things. Any psychologist could tell you that (and I'd cite some sources here, but I don't have time to look them up right now. I may later). Guys and girls are equal in value, importance and no geral, global awesomeness, no question...but it's a fact of life that they tick differently, that their bodies and hormones work differently and affect their behavior. That's how God made us, and I'm okay with that. Difference does NOT equal inequality, nor does it mean that people are limited or trapped inside those differences and can't break the "mold". And I personally think FMA reflects that very well.
"Roy should have being female and Riza male. It is as simple as that."
Well, whatever floats yer boat. Genderbend as much as you want! I won't complain!
Coming up next: Part 3
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NaokoElric writes...
"I mean in chapter 84, Edward tells her to bake him as maçã, apple pie and keep it warm for him and she agrees! I mean, in reality, Edward was saying, as AveriaAlexandros puts, "Get back in the cozinha and make an maçã, apple pie for me" and Winry was responding, "Of course, I'll do something stereotypical and sexist as you're my man and must tell me what to do."
I think you completely missed the point of that scene. I encourage you to look back a few pages and reread the conversation they had. Keep that context in mind, and you'll see there's a far deeper meaning to the "apple pie" thing. When Edward said to keep an maçã, apple pie warm for him, he wasn't telling her to "get back in the kitchen". He was clearly promising her that he wouldn't give up, and that no matter what, hope would prevail and he would come início to her in one piece. Likewise, Winry didn't agree because he was "her man telling her what to do". It was her way of saying, "Alright. I'm trusting you to keep that promise, and I'll keep believing in you." Symbolism, people! =D
"She is also the only important character who does not directly witness Edward returning Alphonse from the gate, his body restored, in chapter 108 while every other important character does (Mustang, Hawkeye, Ling, Ran fã and Mei) and some unimportant characters (the Chimeras). That just is not fair, considering the fact that she is their CHILDHOOD FRIEND!"
I do kinda wish Winry had played a bigger role in the ending. However, she wouldn't have been much use in the final battle, and dragging her all the way there just to see Alphonse come out of the Gate would have seemed awkward and pointless, plot-wise. I also have the feeling that Ed wouldn't have wanted her to see Al before he recovered his strength and health. He wanted her to see both of them fully alive and kicking...and that's exactly what she got. And I wouldn't trade that glorious Golden Trio glomp panel for anything in the world. =3
"Let us not forget about that scene where Winry first met Scar, learns he killed her parents. Instead of being strong and confronting him in a Valente manner, she started bloody crying, sunk to her knees, looking pathetic and weak, despite the fact that she picked up a gun and contemplated shooting him!"
I think that's extremely unfair. Context - she's been bottling up grief over her parents for years. Then she sees her two closest friends fighting for their lives against a dangerous serial killer, who she just found out murdered her own parents, even though they saved him. All of that fear, shock, horror and anguish, hitting her all at once, like an emotional hurricaine. Of course she'd cry! Who wouldn't in her shoes? She's human. She has emotions, vulnerabilities and weaknesses - just like Ed and Al, Roy, Riza, Havoc, Izumi, Ling, Hohenheim and every other character who's cried or fallen apart. If you think Winry's pathetic for it, you should judge the others accordingly too.
"To make this is even mais sexist, it was the boy (Edward) that had to jump in front of the girl (Winry) and protect her. The boy had to get the girl to put the gun down. The boy who had to comfort the girl while she cried her little coração out like a baby!"
In vol. 4, when Winry witnessed Ed dealing with the pain of his automail surgery, crying out his guilt and fear that Al blamed him for everything, I didn't see a girl comforting and reassuring a boy. I saw a friend being there for another friend and hurting along with him.
Likewise in vol. 12, when Ed stopped Winry from shooting Scar and held her when she cried, I didn't see a boy saving and comforting a girl. I saw two, hurt, scared young people clinging to each other in the midst of a painful, insane world. Again, I saw a friend being there for another friend and hurting along with her.
I see absolutely nothing pathetic or sexist about that. In addition, I amor how Ed tells her why she couldn't shoot. It wasn't because she was too weak, but rather because of her inner strength and integrity. "Your hands aren't meant for killing...they're for saving lives." In other words, she couldn't pull the trigger because it wasn't who she was (just like Ed also couldn't pull the trigger at Envy's true form. It's not just a girl thing!) He didn't want her to betray herself or do something that would haunt her the rest of her life, and that's why he stopped her...NOT because "you're a girl and therefore can't fight".
"The girl had to be left in the protection of the Military, as if she could not protect herself! How you could write this, Arakawa-sensei? How could you make our own gender look so pathetic?"
Um...the military is SUPPOSED to protect people. That's their job. And do you really think Ed would hold her through her trauma and then just thoughtlessly cast her aside to deal with it alone and go gallivanting off to fight some more? Speaking from experience, you can't just instantly bounce back from something so painful and magically get all strong and better and "I can take care of myself" again. It's draining, emotionally and physically. You need time to deal with it and pull yourself together. He left his dearest friend with the military because he knew she needed that; because he cared about her and wanted to make sure she'd be safe, just like ANY good friend would do. It's not pathetic; it's life, and it happens to everyone no matter what gender they are. Arakawa knows it and shows it.
"At least in the 2003 Anime, the "Winry meets her parent's killer" scene played out much better. Instead of breaking down in tears, Winry was strong and refused to cry, as she did not want to be a burden. That is very non-sexist."
Once again, context. The characters of the killers and the ways she found out about it are completely different. In the manga, it hits her all at once without warning, and the killer is a amargo, amarga stranger bent on revenge. In the anime, she has mais control over the situation. She puts the pieces together and figures it out herself, and the killer is someone she knows and respects. So of course her reaction would be quieter. Also, she DOES cry about it, when she's at Gracia's house and sees a picture of Roy and Hughes on the table. (Can't remember which episode exactly, but it's there.)
"Arakawa-sensei was also hypocritical, as she made Winry previously say something along the lines of "I don't want to wait anymore". However, she contradicted that when she had Winry return to Rizenbul and stay there."
You do have a bit of a point there. However, she didn't make Winry return right away. Winry said that because she wanted to help Ed and Al and everyone else, and when it was clear she'd done her part and didn't need to travel around anymore, she went back início to be with her grandma again. Remember, that's mainly where her life and her work is. She wasn't returning solely to "wait" for Ed and Al some more; she was returning to carry on with her own, normal life.
"Thus, we are back to the "A male/a group of males go on adventures to reach a goal, while the female friend/love interest, oblivious as to what is happening, waits at home" situation, and I hate that!"
I've already given my two cents about that, so I won't repeat myself. I don't mind the "trope", but if it's not your thing, that's fine.
"At least in the 2003 she actually does things other than repairing automail and crying. She interacts with mais people (e.g. Roy and Sciezka) and does a lot mais on her own. For example, she tapped Julia Douglas/Sloth's phone lines and she and Sciezka did investigating on her own. She even had her own little story apart from the Elric Brothers."
She travels and interacts with a lot of people in the manga, too! In Rush Valley she reforms a pickpocket (let's not forget Paninya!), delivers a baby (saving the lives of the mother AND child), finds a good apprenticeship and makes many new friends. In Briggs, she learns of her hostage situation and uses her head to get out of it. She settles things with Scar and comes up with a way to escape from Kimblee. She also goes to Liore with Al, meets the brothers' father and makes friends with Rose. So I personally think both Winrys have done a lot of cool and courageous things.
"Winry should have been male, yet still have been in the same situation, and go though same things in the mangá I had issues with, as, with Winry being male, it would no longer be sexist to us women."
I don't care who's a boy or who's a girl. I don't care who has the higher military rank, who cooks, who fights, who cries, who comforts or who saves who. Because to me, FMA isn't about genders...it's about people. Human beings with fears, hopes, dreams, doubts, virtues and failings, all lifting and helping each other in different ways and going through the same pain together. I think these things are universal to everyone, and that every individual has their own personality and reacts to things differently. And thus, I don't see sexism anywhere with Winry. I see her as her own person, not a caricature or a stereotype. But I won't bash you for saying differently.
"Now I will talk about the seguinte two characters in my rant: Roy mustang and Riza Hawkeye. Firstly, why did Arakawa-sensei make the woman the subordinate, and the man the powerful State Alchemist (well expect that he is useless in the rain) and Superior Officer/Boss?"
He does have a whole bunch of men subordinates too. And out of his entire crew, Riza - the woman - is the closest and most important to him. And just because he has a higher rank than her doesn't mean they aren't equal or that they don't respect each other (which to me defines whether or not something is sexist). He may give the orders, but she isn't without power herself; and the only reason why she "follows" him is because they both happen to be going in the same direction, chasing the same dream. Riza almost literally holds his life in her hands. He specifically gives her the order to watch his back and shoot him if he strays from their goal - in other words, she has power over his very life. I see nothing sexist about that. On the contrary, I see them as a very powerful team.
"Furthermore, even though she is a tough gunslinger, Riza was turned into a bit of a Damsel in Distress as The Führer made her, like Winry to Edward, a hostage to keep Roy in check."
And just like with Winry's case, I believe it's because she is the person closest and dearest to Roy, not because she's a "helpless woman".
"She was also twice made into a complete Damsel in Distress when she was attacked por Gluttony, and later, when her throat was slit. She was saved on both occasions, despite her skills, the first time (the Gluttony one) por men!"
Let's think about this - the first time, she's in a cramped space, armed only with her rifle (which can't do much damage against a humunculous) and no alchemy. Realistically, what could anyone have done against Gluttony in that scenario? Also, she wasn't alone. She had a man with her - Fuery, if I recall correctly - and even when he teamed up with her, they couldn't defeat Gluttony. Roy wasn't just saving Riza; he was saving two subordinates that he cared about. And the segundo time, she isn't saved por a man, but por Mei, another female. Explain to me how that is sexist.
"Then there is Riza crying when she thought Roy was dead. I mean do we ever get a scene where the man is crying and screaming because he thinks the woman he loves is dead?"
We get Roy screaming and freaking out when Riza's throat gets slit. We also see him crying at Hughes's funeral and going crazy when he tries to take revenge on Envy. All instances were pretty intense and emotional, if you ask me. And let's not forget Hohenheim, who openly cried about Trisha - multiple times. Or Ling, who breaks down in tears when his grandfather suffers a mortal wound and dies.
"Even if there is a scene like that, the man does not cry most of the tine. Another example of Arakawa-sensei's self-sexism."
I see it as realism, not sexism. The fact is, in general (there are always exceptions based on everyone's individual personality)...guys don't tend to cry as often as girls. (No, don't roll your eyes and look away; hear me out.) It's not that they can't, or that doing so is "unmanly" or a bad thing at all...they just don't. It's not how they're usually wired or how they deal with things. Any psychologist could tell you that (and I'd cite some sources here, but I don't have time to look them up right now. I may later). Guys and girls are equal in value, importance and no geral, global awesomeness, no question...but it's a fact of life that they tick differently, that their bodies and hormones work differently and affect their behavior. That's how God made us, and I'm okay with that. Difference does NOT equal inequality, nor does it mean that people are limited or trapped inside those differences and can't break the "mold". And I personally think FMA reflects that very well.
"Roy should have being female and Riza male. It is as simple as that."
Well, whatever floats yer boat. Genderbend as much as you want! I won't complain!
Coming up next: Part 3
She's got a gun. Don't make her angry.
