Cancelling | ContraPoints

zanhar1 Thanks for sharing, this is a fantastic video so far (kinda long so I might watch in segments lol. [i]"A nasty and dishonest twisting of the story."[/i] This right here is one of the biggest reasons why I hate cancel culture and the one that I've had the most experience with. People will take what you say, however innocent and twist it into something cancel worthy. And if you don't catch it on time and present your story, everyone is going to come at you with something that you didn't even do. *Gestures* to the part of the video where presumed guilt is talked about.* And then there's the he is mentality. I am [i]so[/i] glad that linguistics was brought up because this is such an important and overlooked aspect of cancel culture; people make it an attack on a person's entire character instead of just their one mistake (real or perceived). This basically dehumanizes the person and reduces them to only that one thing that they said or did. It makes them easier to hate and harder to sympathize with . Which is extremely dangerous. [i]"Imagine actually wanting someone to learn. Imagine caring."[/i] And this is another good point. The whole thing about moral integrity. 80% of the time I feel like people are cancelled not out of genuine concern but over a vendetta, clout, or other personal gain. If you're cancelling someone for selfish reasons then some self reflection is due. Cancel culture has been weaponized. [i]"Cancel culture is used to give power to the little people."[/i] The problem here is that, this is no longer what it is used for. Once upon a time, as mentioned in the video, it was people like R Kelly and Chris Brown being cancelled. People with lots of money who could lord it over littler people. Things like [url=https://truthaboutdahvie.tumblr.com/]Davhie Vanity being cancelled[/url] are okay because there is ample proof of what he has done and it does come from a place of protecting venerable teens & tweens from a rockstar who has money and social status that he uses to his advantage. The problem is that lately people have been cancelling every day ordinary people. People who [i]don't[/i] have money or status. People who are on the same level as the one cancelling them. And so it isn't about taking down someone who is too powerful to reach otherwise, it's about controlling someone and gaining power over someone. I also highly relate to the part where James got cancelled for transphobia. Sure, what he said was off color. But it was more or less innocent. Like mentioned in the video he was a young kid, still trying to figure out his own sexuality. Saying something like what James did, isn't always transphobic. Sometimes it's just ignorance. He probably didn't even realize that what he said was offensive. And instead of explaining why it was offensive and helping him to understand so that future mistakes can be avoided, they got right to calling him transphobic. This is exactly how you scare a person away from asking questions and trying to learn. This is how you scare people away from any future discussions about the topic.

ThePrincesTale I don't have much time rn but: [i]"Things like Davhie Vanity being cancelled are okay because there is ample proof of what he has done and it does come from a place of protecting venerable teens & tweens from a rockstar who has money and social status that he uses to his advantage. The problem is that lately people have been cancelling every day ordinary people. People who don't have money or status. People who are on the same level as the one cancelling them. And so it isn't about taking down someone who is too powerful to reach otherwise, it's about controlling someone and gaining power over someone."[/i] <-- this is a really great point! There's defnitely a difference between "punching up" at people who might otherwise not be held accountable due to wealth / power / influence etc vs. cancelling a random person on the itnernet. Power dynamics matter. [i]"I might watch in segments lol"[/i] lolol yeah full disclosure, I've only watched the first 30 mins so far

zanhar1 @Princes Thanks lol. I agree power dynamics should definitely be factored in. __________________ To continue: "Ignorance is not the same thing as hatred." Is another very solid point. Because it's very true; ignorance can be corrected rather easily. Hatred is a bit harder to work with. "Sometimes just talking to someone with just a bit of penitence is all it takes." Literally this though! Like in my case with the putting a transman in a wlw week. (First of all I asked if that was wrong or right) but even if I didn't, literally all that someone had to do was say "hey, that actually isn't okay because *explains why* can you please tag it differently." Or (years back when I was like 13 and first getting into these types of discussion) when I used bad phrasing. I said something along the lines of, "she thinks she's a woman." Admittedly, horrible phrasing but I was like 13 and new to the topic. I wish someone would have just explained why that was hurtful so I could avoid making future mistakes like that. Instead, as put in the video, "they escalated it to the highest degree. We don't give him a chance to reflect, we don't give him a chance to learn we go straight to branding him as a bigot." Because of that I just stopped talking about trans stuff altogether. I never posed anything hateful but I was no less ignorant about trans stuff than I was before. And at that point I was too afraid to ask because I got mobbed. I think that this is why I [i]still[/i] have a degree of ignorance about trans stuff because I'm [i]still[/i] too afraid to ask any questions. So I try to be careful about my wording and not step on any toes. But I think that sometimes it still happens anyways. Granted I've also had several people tell me that I didn't do anything wrong at all. And so it's just a huge ??? in my mind. So trope 5 'no forgiveness'. This is another one that is just crazy important. Because this right here (combined with ignorance) creates resentment and hatred. If a person has been cancelled for something the only thing standing between them and becoming the 'ist' that they were cancelled for is however strong their moral compass is. I know for a fact (because I have seen it happen) that there are people who get cancelled for being homophobic (despite not actually being homophobic) turn around and become homophobic for real because, 'well they already think I'm homophobic so I might as well be.' Sort of like how people who are branded as 'insane' can start to exabit more mental illness. Or how a child who was called a bad kid will start acting out more. They're already damned and on their way to hell so it's go big or go home. [b]And that's why forgiveness is important: it leaves room for growth and improvement.[/b] Forgiveness paves the way to new friendships and outlooks. Damnation seals the deal. And then there's the fact that people will dig up stuff from ages ago even stuff that was already apologized for and over with. That's toxic and evil as hell. Opinions change with new information and age and perspectives. I used to be pro-life, now I'm making huge essay like comments on why pro-choice is the way to go. It's one thing if the person continues making the same off-color jokes, but if they clearly learned from it and have since stopped, then it's time to let that comment from 10 years ago go. [i]Sometimes they are weaponized to destroy people who have made mistakes, but who really don't deserve to be destroyed. If you're a superstar in the long run they can't really set you back. But what if you're not James Charles, what if you can't afford public relations. Well in that case it's a whole different story."[/i] Yess!!! Thank you! That's what I was talking about with the above. The power dynamic thing. And holy shit I didn't expect 6 to get brought up. But the whole transitive thing is another good one; [i]"If you assocaite with a cancelled person the cancellation rubs off." [/i] People shouldn't be guilty by association. First of all, there's this assumption that the second person knows that the other was cancelled. Secondly, even if they do know person two is not person one and they have different ideals and POVs. Thirdly person one has a right to have friends still (see the paragraph about forgiveness). Loved the bit about how "sometimes people just need a safe space to learn and grow and think." And how cancel culture prevents this. [i]"Cancelling is not holding someone accountable. It is an attack on another human being."[/i] Also true. The goal of cancelling has shifted from responsibility to shaming. And the Jo Freeman quote is also just the truth. "People are either good or bad." And that part about the mask slipping is as a glimpse at a person's entire character is horrifying because that's how these people treat it. They don't take a single bad action as the outlier or one time thing of a person's behavior but as their true colors coming out. Which just isn't true; how many times have you said something out of anger or because you were having a bad day? One bad day isn't who you are as a person. It's what came out when you were pushed to breaking. And that these people will zero in on one wrong remark and build an entire person around it is terrifying. People aren't 100% bad and they sure as hell aren't 100% good either. [i]"As a collective they have a terrifying power that they aren't aware of."[/i] This is another good point. For a smaller youtuber/celebrity. There is extreme power in numbers and it can totally ruin a person's career. Even for someone as big and famous as Johnny Depp. Another thing to think about is the psychological trauma/damage. I don't think that these people realize what cancelling someone can do. Zami is my go to example. She tried to take her own life because of harassment born out of cancel culture. People have [i]died[/i] or almost died because of this. Also people underestimate how far a crowd/mob will take things. People who have been cancelled have been doxxed. Their family members and friends have been harmed because of it. People have physically attacked people who have been cancelled. And they don't feel bad because the person they attacked has been dehumanized and vilified. [i]"Once you're cancelled you can really do no right."[/i] Oof, if that ain't the truth. She goes on to say that apologies are seen as trying to save face. Saying nothing at all is ignoring the issue. Trying to tell your side is trying to justify your actions. So really there is no way out of it. There's no winning. Once you're cancelled it's game over and that's absolutely terrifying. Side note: transgender vs transexual was a question I've had for a while, bless her soul. I googled it a bit for myself but it's nice to hear it from someone who is trans.

ThePrincesTale From memory I'm still only to "Trope 7: Dualism" in this vid but did you get to the part where she mentioned she had brunch with a youtuber called "June"? I'm about 99% sure she's referring to sh0eonhead lol Will watch the rest / write a longer comment on the weekend

zanhar1 I finished the whole video lol. Tbh that's what I thought too (about June).