HA! HAHA! I WATCHED THAT SAME SHOW!

... I just wanted to say that.

I've already argued this point in the gay marriage pick, so I'll just say succinctly and simply: No it's not a choice. You can see my argument at the pick.

Even on the show, the guy admitted he still had homosexual tendencies, but he didn't act on them and that was important. So can you choose whether or not to ACT on it? Yes, of course.

But you can't change who you are. :oS

Actually, I remember an article my Dad talked about about 20 years ago, he read in a magazine, I think it was TIME, that there was a woman who was homosexual and 'knew it' when she was 19. She lived that way for years, but suddenly changed. I am not sure if she had tried out a church or if she went to a psychologist or whatever, but the article was called "I Saw the Light" and by the time she was 30 she had married a good man and had a family with him. I wish I could have held on to the magazine.

Technically speaking, all the gays/lesbians I know knew they were gay since the onset of puberty, some even felt they were different before that. I've never met someone who knew they were gay at nineteen. That seems late. Not that I'm saying she wasn't or anything, it's just interesting to me. Learn something new I guess.

Plenty of homosexual people marry the opposite sex, settle down, even have kids, but generally (and I mean generally), they're never really happy, nor do they really feel right with themselves. A gay man could even fall in love with his wife. But probably not as completely as he feels he should have.

But like I said, you can choose not to act on it, but it doesn't mean you can choose it.

I have a bunch of issues with people thinking that homosexuality is a choice. First off, to quote a friend, "I hate it when straight people claim homosexuality is a choice. It implies that they made that 'choice' themselves at some point in their life, which means they're probably just closeted gays anyway." She makes a lot of sense, actually. Did you choose to be straight?

Is it something they can ignore? Is it something they can suppress? Sure, if they tried hard enough. My question is, why should they hide who they are? Shouldn't they be free to be themselves? I have watched gay people try to be straight, and it's like watching short people stretch their neck to try and grow a foot taller. You're either short, or you're tall. You're gay or you're straight. Or you're bisexual. Which does not mean you're confused. But you cannot change who you are.

That's not to say I doubt the validity of your article at all. That woman may feel she has changed, and that she has found happiness, and if so, then good for her.

But it's been my experience that you cannot control or choose your sexuality anymore than you can choose or control your height. You can put on six inch heals, but the fact of the matter is, you'll still only be five feet when you take off your shoes so your feet can be comfortable again.

I just think these people should be allowed to be comfortable with themselves and who they are. I have never found a good enough reason to convince me that homosexuality is wrong. In my mind, it's synonymous with heterosexuality because homosexual relationships are identical to heterosexual ones. Therefore, I don't understand why anyone can condemn it.

OK.

I'm curious, what do you think marissa?

I believe in the Kinsey scale and that the majority of the world is bisexual to a certain degree. One doesn't choose who they want to canoodle with but they do choose who they actually get freaky with.

I believe people who are not gay should not discuss whether or not it is a choice, because what do they know?:P

Here here, Zerstoren!

And katiemariie, I agree with the Kinsey scale too.

The question should be: Why does it even matter whether or not it is a choice? there is nothing wrong with it...

Unless you want to get all religious and quote Leviticus, in which case I will verbally smack you so hard your kids will be born dizzy.

O.k. DrDevience, now that you've spouted your hate, shall the debate continue?

I feel this question can never be completely answered. Some feel it's a choice, others feel they were "born homosexual", and some think something else. The Kinsey scale can't fully answer the question. Some are hateful towards Biblical references, and others believe some natural phenomena.
And being told that a heterosexual should keep their mouth shut because they're not homosexual is utter ridiculousness. The purpose of this forum is discusiion & debate, is it not?

Just so people understand, I am not a religious zealot. I have my faith & I know what stands behind my faith in moral issues.

It is not hate so much as a low tolerance for bigots, Major. The religious sect always wants to start selectively quoting Leviticus and conveniently leave out the other parts where it says things like Do not let cripples into your church, don't forget to sacrifice animals on such-n-such a day, etc...

But to stay on topic, no, it is not a choice. Did you choose to be hetero? Or where you born with that preferrence?

Well yes, since this is a debate i'll throw my 2 cents in:
You don't choose to be in love, it just happens. While there are factors in your life that make you more prone to love a person, nothing is completely voluntary when it comes to "desires" of that nature. I believe it is much the same with homosexuality: You cannot choose to feel certain urges or to not feel them. They are just there. You can of course, choose to act out on them. But that is entirely different.

I'm a bisexual.

You may be familiar with the story I told about my friend in high school who tried to be straight. If not, then I'll just reiterate.

(From the link)

"One of my very best friends is gay, and I have watched him struggle with it from the moment I met him in ninth grade. He tried so hard to be straight, he really, really did, but he could not be happy in any female relationship he had because he felt absolutely no attraction to them, and it made him awkward and ashamed, and he was so humiliated because all he wanted to do was grow up get married and have kids. I've spent many nights with him crying because he didn't want to be gay. I watched him develop other emotional problems that I won't go into here because of it. But by junior year, he was completely out (the whole school knew), and all his other emotional problems dissolved because he was happy with who he was, and he had finally come to terms with it.

This more than anything else has convinced me that being gay is not a fetish or a quirk or some aberration, it is who you are and unless you have gone through it, or seen someone go through it, many straight people I meet just cannot understand that.

As a bisexual, I had it easier. I could deny my attraction to women ever since I recognized it from a young age because I was also attracted to men, and thus had plenty of healthy relationships with men. But I couldn't deny that I also liked women. I have also dated a girl before and she is such a wonderful and beautiful person. And I felt a deep connection with her. We aren't together anymore (due mostly to the fact that she lives in Rome) but I still care about her and respect her and wish her the best. In the future, I do not know who I will fall in love with, but I'm glad that I'm open enough to know that I will fall in love with a PERSON and not a gender."

Story 2 (Addressing a heterosexual girl):

"I dated this best friend, and let me tell you, the chemistry (at least on his end) was nonexistent. He tensed up when I tried to get closer, and after about a week he really didn't seem to enjoy it as much. The only thing he could do comfortably with me physically was cuddle and watch a movie. He had no problem with that. But otherwise, (and he told me this after we broke up), he said it felt strange to him, because while he liked me a whole lot, he didn't feel attracted to me at all. And I'm not the only girl he dated, either.

I'm sure you've had crushes on boys. So have I, and so had he. But he had never had crushes on any girls.

This is an important detail to consider when wondering whether or not homosexuality is a choice. I'm sure you cannot choose the men you're attracted to, anymore than he could. Nobody who is gay WANTS to be at first. Why would you choose something that is socially unacceptable? If you've never been attracted to women, and you're a man, how does that make it a choice?

The reason I'm saying this is to support the idea that has already been stated which is that homosexuality is who you are, not what you do."

Now of COURSE this is only two stories. But every gay person I have met has told me that they have NEVER felt it to be a choice, and frankly neither have I. Like I said, as a bisexual it's easier for me to deny that other tendency, but I don't think I should. If I fall in love with a girl, I'm open to that. To me, it is really all about the person, and not the gender. Does this mean I cannot have strictly platonic relationships with girls? Hell no! I have so many friends both male and female that I would never be able to date for so many reasons. Homosexuality is not about sex, it's about affection, and love, and connecting with another person. Too often people forget that.

I know, MajorDork, that you have posted articles and such of gays and lesbians claiming that they "saw the light" and changed their ways. And though I can never really know, nor can I judge, but I don't think they have really "changed." They may have chosen not to act on their feelings, and to force themselves to love someone of the opposite sex, but I don't think they've changed who they are. However, if they want to change that badly that they allow themselves to be brainwashed or hypnotized or some other technique to "fix them" and they're happy with that, and they're happy doing that, then good for them. And if they have truly believed that they have changed, then also good for them.

But in my experience, both in observing the strictly homosexual and bisexual behavior, it is not a choice. It wasn't for me, and it wasn't for my friends. The difference with a bisexual is, if you find you have a crush on a person of the same sex as you, you CAN ignore it because you can only focus on the opposite sex if you want to.

My question is, why should you? That's what I asked myself one day when a girl I was close friends with confided in me that she was bisexual. Up to that point, I had denied my feelings, but when she trusted me, I had to ask myself why I was hiding. So I told her the same thing. And when I said it, I realized I really had nothing to be ashamed of.

No one to date has given me a valid reason for why homosexuality is immoral. I don't need religious quotes because even they do not answer my question. Just because the Bible says something, what makes it true. The fact that it's the word of God. God gave us intellect, and curiosity to reason for ourselves why things are moral and immoral. I cannot simply take someone's word for it. If someone told me that it was a sin to eat broccoli, I would still eat broccoli because that reasoning has no logic behind it.

Perhaps we were not meant to know answers to certain questions at certain times. The whole point of accepting by faith what God says to be true is saving yourself from where you may go after we leave this mortal realm. And don't take that line as me telling anybody where they will go when they die without God in their lives. Not my job. This is where I just present what I have been taught & firmly believe after my own studies. I cannot say where anybody will go, that's God's job. "In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was God, and the Word was with God." This Word has been around even before time itself, before books were written, before ANYTHING we know of existed.
I don't need books that men have written to tell me what is logical because logic only goes so far. I know I stated once before that I repsect a good education and have no problems with it. But if you let the education get in the way of what God may have in store for you, which could be much better than what the world would offer, then shouldn't that turn a light on in your heart? Not your head, but your heart.
I've tried following what my body has wanted & it got me in toruble. I started listening to my heart after I realized that God was speaking to me & trouble was still there but I was being swayed from it. It's like looking at a beer, yes it is there & I have enjoyed it, but also paid a price that I just didn't want to deal with anymore. It was an issue borne of Satan's doing, temptation.
My father once told me, "Whatever is not of God, is of Satan. His (Satan) only goals are to destroy mankind by turning them away from God and to dethrone God. And homosexuality (including bisexuality) is sinful, borne of Satan's clever mind."
I am not telling anybody these things as judging them. Not my job. It's been shown in more ways than one that these lifestyles are wrong.
link
Here's one way of finding out how things got started, Cinders.
Satan has found, instantly, many ways to use our own minds against us to think things that aren't true, making them look truthful, 'logical', and seemingly right. I've fallen for messes before that Satan set up. I realized, from church, lessons, reading the Bible, and praying that Satan's ways are so darned subtle that sometimes we're lead to believe things and follow through with carnal acts and we don't realize we're being lead into it.
Satan is an expert on human nature, and thusly, 'makes us' fall for such lies. Logic can destroy you. That's why I've only trusted what the Lord tells me in prayers. I've lost friends who've followed the alternate paths, lost them to death or something just as destructive. That's one of many reasons why I get so passionate about these things. That's why I say it is a choice. As clichè as it sounds, the Devil does make you do it. I ask, why do you let him do it to you?
Nobody can give me a straight answer. True it is their choice to make & their lessons to learn, but are you sure you want to pay that type of price? My brother told me when he was an adolescent that he went through something he never wants to go through again. God allowed him to be possessed by a demon and he just felt such a fear he never felt before, like almost complete separation from God. A darkness of sorts that no one can really explain with words.
If the devil can do that, don't you think that falling for such carnal lusts can lead down that path eventually? All these issues, these travesties............I know I don't want to find out. These are things that make me see that everyone is so weak-minded in certain ways that it is so easy to fall for things like that.
I could go on, but I am tired and don't feel like getting any deeper.

Sometimes you flat scare me...

Oh well.

No, it`s simple. Either you`re gay or you`re straight. Is being your age a choice? Nope. Lol. I`m a pretty religous catholic & I don`t have a problem with homosexuality although I myself love boys LOL. I know a guy from church who is gay & he suffered enough cuz our religon is so against homosexuality & hes like super catholic so it was sad watching him =(

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As you can see from these sites, everybody has something different to say about it: it's genetic, it's choice, etc., etc.

So, I doubt there will ever be a straight answer for it.

I know this is a digression, but in response to MajorDork:

"I do not feel obliged believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."

-- Galileo Galili

I think I've quoted this somewhere before. His point was that, God gave man intelligence, and so it is man's duty to learn as much as he can about the world around him and come to his own conclusions.

I was watching "Promises" the other day (I told you I would!) and a young Jewish boy said it very well. He was asked, "As a non-practicing Jew, do you feel it's your duty to help educate me and bring me closer to Judaism?" The boy, very intelligently responded with something along the lines of (I'll get the exact quote later but don't have the DVD on hand right now), "It is some people's place to help other's find God, it is some people's place to help themselves find God on their own, and it is some people's place to do what they believe to be the right thing whether they know it is God's work or not. God has an intention for every life, and some people recognize Him in their lifetime, and some do not, but each has their own journey to make."

I'm saying this in your response to education getting in the way of what God has planned for you. I respect that you have faith. I have faith, too. In reason. In logic. In numbers, in nature, in beauty, in the unknown, in the willingness to admit that I do not know. That is the whole point of Agnosticism that clearly seperates it from Atheism. While an Atheist is sure that there is no God, to the extent that they are said to have "faith" in that lack of faith, an agnostic simply acknowledges that we do not know, nor were we ever meant to know. An agnostic believes that anything is possible. They believe in the existence of a God of some sort, but an agnostic's God is undefined.

My God is the one who gave me life, the one who guides me in trying times, the one who challenges me daily, the one that allows me to come to my own conclusions.

My God is very much like your God. Only my God has less restrictions, and less dogma, and less laws.

I believe that if I am a good person to the best of my ability then that is all I can do. Organized religion shuns every other religion that doesn't believe what they do. I know plenty believe there is only one way to God, or heaven, or whatever you believe in.

I have been moved by science in a way that many have been moved by religion. I am actually not a scientist, I'm an English/drama double major, however I absolutely adore astronomy. The sheer vastness of the universe is breath-taking. The beauty of a nebula. The incredulous existence of a black hole, which until their discovery, even Einstein claimed did not exist.

I don't know how I can explain it, but this, to me, is what God is. Immense, and powerful, and completely unable to be understood by us.

This leads me to my second point: I have read the Book of Genesis, it's one of the few complete Books of the Bible that I have read. And let me tell you how I see it.

Given: That God is immensely powerful, beyond our comprehension, that His ways are mysterious, and He has an intellect that far surpasses our own (humans and earthworms again).

I'm sure nearly everyone, of every major religion, can agree with this point.

Now if God has such great intellect and power, how would he explain his will to us?

Well, consider yourself trying to explain a difficult concept to a child. What is one of the most common practices to use?

Metaphors.

You make it simpler, so they can understand the rudimentary idea of it, but they will never truly grasp the idea until they come of age.

The Bible, or for specifics case, the Book of Genesis at the very least, is a Book of Metaphors. I am not saying they are not true. I am saying that Adam and Eve is the representation of the beginning of life. That the biting of the apple, the fruit of knowledge, was the beginning of self-awareness, from Homo erectus to Homo sapien, and as there is no "sin" before self-awareness, neither was there morals. Man was in fact not man at all, but animal, until he bit into that "forbidden fruit," so to speak.

This is just one example of how I see the Book of Genesis as a series of simplistic metaphors to explain concepts that are far beyond our understanding.

As for Satan, if you look up Joseph Campbell's idea of the monomyth, you'll find that every single culture in history always has an antagonist to their protaginist. But I'm digressing from my digression. Back on topic.

There are things that I believe are right, and there are things that I believe are wrong. There are things that I also believe are both and neither right nor wrong. This gets into a whole other digression which I won't go into now. My point in saying this is that the Bible is a foundation for morals upon which you build.

You cannot cherry-pick from the Bible the chapters that support your ideas and ignore the ones that don't. I'm pretty sure that even YOU don't believe in everything Leviticus has to tell you. For example:

Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

(Leviticus, 25:44-46)

So if you practiced everything Leviticus said, you would be taking heathen slaves, right?

Look, I'm not saying the Bible is WRONG, and I'm DEFINITELY not saying it doesn't teach good values, because for the most part it does. But one has to put it into context. "Thou shalt not kill" is a pretty straight-forward rule of thumb that crosses every major religion including secularism. However, touching a dead bug making you unclean? (Leviticus 11:23-31)

Back to Satan. I believe him to be another metaphor of the evil that exists in the world. The yang to God's yin, so to speak. While I don't believe in the devil as Christians do (my belief is that all evil is man-made), I do believe that he works just as sneakily as God does.

I have met some wicked people who claimed to be doing God's work, when really they were spreading hate and intolerance. To me, anyone who claims that they are doing God's work (unless they're a priest), strikes me as arrogant and ignorant. How would they know what God's work is?

However, if you're killing adulterers, and homosexuals, then I guess you are, technically, doing "God's work," according to Leviticus, at least.

Please don't cherry-pick. It's like a scientist saying, "I believe in atoms, but not molecules."

I don't believe that people can choose whether or not to be gay. Plain and simple. Very religious Roman Catholic speaking, by the way.

But I do disagree entirely with the way DrDevience has brought about his arguments.

"Unless you want to get all religious and quote Leviticus, in which case I will verbally smack you so hard your kids will be born dizzy."

How very rude and ignorant of you to discredit someone's argument before they may even make it. If someone chooses to base their arguments on their beliefs, it isn't up to you to "verbally smack them."

Once again, we are on the same side, but I resent the way that you argue.

ALRITE HERE ME OUT AND HERE ME WELL! I agree completley with majordork74!!

Homosexuality is a choice, and just like every choice it is taken up into a emotion. In this case the emotion is love... love PERVERTED BY THE VICES!!

It is a sin! I pray that these sinners will repent and realize they are being fooled! You are not in love please it is really a deadful disease and it is my job to pray for those around me just so they will be welcomed into the kingdom of heaven..... it is not my place to judge and I am not going to judge your sins, just if you repent or not!

The Lord will know.. but it is never to late... just please ask for forgivness admit you need Lord Jesus as your saviour and he will help you correct the show of becoming homosexual.

It personally disgusts me when a christian is a supporter of homosexuality.... you must pray for these sinners...

You can see, by this forum topic, that there are many diferent sides.

In my opinion, there isn't a choice. Why are you straight? (or gay if you are) Because you are that way. It's a part of you. It's your personality.

I guess lots of peoples personalities and feelings change over time. But can you just change who you are? If your a girl, can you change your sex? if your a different race, can you change it? No, you can't, it's how you are. These may be the worst examples but I hope you understand what I mean.

And you know what makes me sooo angry? When people bring things like religion into the subject. i don't want to be rude fairykiya,and I can't change your opinion, but you can't really be a good debater if you always bring religion into the subject. I'm a muslim, your answer has no effect on me. You probably don't care however.

fairykiya said:
ALRITE HERE ME OUT AND HERE ME WELL! I agree completley with majordork74!!

"Homosexuality is a choice, and just like every choice it is taken up into a emotion. In this case the emotion is love"

Wel in response to this, let's say you were in love with a guy. You hate him but you can't change the fact you love him. You can't control this emotion. Some emotions can be controlled,but really? I think that some of you should walk a mile in someone's shoe.

I'm starting my own religion whereupon heterosexuality has now been deemed sinful.

Argue with that.

OK, that was snippy. I'm tired. And fairykiya, sweetheart, your argument just... got to me for some reason. I think it was the "perverted by the vices" part. I'm not offended, it just made me sad for some reason.

Also, like many things in the Bible, you're contradicting yourself:

"Homosexuality is a choice, and just like every choice it is taken up into a emotion. In this case the emotion is love..."

"You are not in love."

And now, for James Baldwin: "Everybody's journey is individual. If you fall in love with a boy, you fall in love with a boy. The fact that many Americans consider it a disease says more about them than it does about homosexuality."

Fairykiya, I don't like people telling me how I feel. If I fall in love with a person, I fall in love completely with that person.

Note I said "person" and haven't specified a sex.

Time for another story time from Cinders.

There was a teacher at my high school, a heterosexual woman who had previously had plenty of successful relationships with men. A second teacher came to the school and they became friends. Good friends. Until, the heterosexual teacher found herself falling in love. Obviously she was surprised. Please note that the second teacher made no advances, or flirtations with the first teacher, in fact the first teacher had no reason to doubt that the second teacher was completely heterosexual as they never discussed that. So don't tell me she was turned gay by the second teacher, because she wasn't.

They did end up getting together. The teacher told me once it was a strange revelation for her, but an honest one, too. She told me that love surpasses everything, and sometimes including gender.

The two teachers were fired shortly thereafter for reasons undisclosed to the student body. But that's irrelevant.

And once more, I ask the constantly asked question in this thread: Fairykiya, did you choose to be heterosexual? Or was that just how you were born? I can understand why straight people might not answer this question, because it is an obvious trap.

Again, I think my main issue with your post is that you tell me you're not judging homosexuals, and yet you've decided already that they are both diseased and sinners (how can something be both a disease and a sin, explain to me?).

Also, you've decided that they cannot be love (or it can be a love that you can control, you contradicted yourself there). How can you decide this if you've never experienced this? How can you be SURE these people don't love like you love?

I assure you. We do.

PS: Greek-- lovely post.

I just love a religion that spreads that we should hate and be disgusted by people who harm no one? Sheesh.
Just as you believe it is wrong, they believe just as strongly it is not. And there is absolutely no way to prove one way or the other. Its best to just keep out of someone else's life if all you can do is put them down and try to turn the world agaisnt them. If you ask me, those people sound like the disgusting ones.
Edit: I'm just a supporter of everyone being tolerant :)

Also-- Kate-- I think Doctor D's point was that Leviticus is the most violent, contradictory book of the bible (or at least of the books I've read/skimmed).

But you have a point. My only issue with religious arguments is it's impossible to debate with them because they aren't based on a foundation of empirical evidence, but of faith. Which is... Fine... But if I can give an economic and social reason for gay marriage and they can just give me a religious one against it... Our debate has come to a standstill. That's all. Apples and oranges, you see.

Doctor D is just frustrated because people do this a lot and since faith cannot be proved or disproved, it's a poor tool for debate.

Thank you, Cinders. I still disagree with the way he stated things, but at least it is slightly more clear to me now. I think we should have not only a president pick, but a peacemaker one, too.
(that's a hint that I'd vote for you ;)

This, just like, abortion to many, is certainly a touchy subject. I am going to leave it alone with my closing statement, Cinders please be aware of it...........since I do not judge ANYBODY, as I repsect all people........"Love the sinner, hate the sin."
I will leave it at that, as reading what was posted after mt last remark has given me a headache. I respect ALL of the views in this debate, right or wrong. Peace everyone.

Oh yes, I've... actually... never been minutely offended by anything you've said, MajorDork. LOL! I was addressing fairykiya. Though I have been spurred to respond to your many views that I happen to disagree with. But you seem to state them fairly enough, and they are your own opinions after all. That's fine. After all, debate is only fun when you have at least two opinionated people discussing issues from opposite ends of the spectrum.

These conversations wouldn't be as interesting (or enlightening!) without you. Or without fairykiya. Or anyone. It would be boring if people agreed with me all the time.

Well I am certainly glad I've added usefull and debateable material to this.

Well if you take parts of the Bible literally like that, it would SEEM violent, but parts of the Bible speak metaphorically. Only God knows the whole truth about every meaning behind the Bible and He'll show us in His time the truth about EVERYTHING.

"Well if you take parts of the Bible literally like that, it would SEEM violent, but parts of the Bible speak metaphorically."

And it is up to who to decide which ones are truth and which are metaphors? Again, cherry-picking. If you use Leviticus as an argument (and the majority of anti-gay religious people do) then you must follow all of Leviticus. It is that simple.

And to kateliness2: I do not mince words. Ever. It is my position that if someone cannot stand the heat, stay out of the debate. I do occasionally even argue the opposite of my own beliefs, and I will do it just as strongly as if I believed that side.

Why? Because I also very strongly believe that if you do not understand both sides equally well then you have no business in the debate either. I do it to keep myself sharp and on my toes...

This issue, to be clear, is one I am arguing my own beliefs.

Leviticus is clear. It is also crap.

Also for the record: I have given MajorDork props for comments. I believe he understands that it is not he himself that I am threatening to bitch-slap, but the possible justification for his argument.

I just find it marvelously intriguing that people want to try relying souly on logic for reasoning in the secular world. The Secular world, to me, is a brick wall and people who rely souly on logic are riding a brakeless bicycle right towards it. You'll only go so far. We ALL hit it, I know I have a few times in life. We all end up asking the age-old question, "Why?"
I could go really deep about the source of most of the religions on here, but I refuse since I know everyone will want to pig-pile on me and try slapping the ever-lovin' tar out of me on here..........figuratively-speaking anyway. I am not up for that tonight. (chuckling silly-like from lack of sleep)
I admit most of y'all really amuse me. This has been a very interesting topic & everybody's got a unique perspective on it all. But when it comes to opposing opinions, I certainly LOVE Cinders!! She has the same bite (verbally) as a copperhead snake in her resounding crack on religious views, yet it doesn't have the 'slamming the brick wall' rebound that DrDevience tries to whip.
I LOVE YA' CINDERS! You're a good one on here!

ALRITE to cinders:

Cinders, sweetheart, don't flatter your self! You are not in love but it still falls under that emotion. RAPE falls under love perverted by the vices, be a rapist or a homosexual, you are still a sinner and need praying for.

You are NOT going to find love, only men and women find love. One day you will look back and wish you had just asked for repentence and righted your soul and mind.

Cinders right now I would say you would not be welcomed to the kingdom of heaven.

...

Rape is a little different than two consenting adults in a relationship built on love/trust. Just because two people are the same gender means they can't love eachother? What do you say to all the happy gay couples out there who are in love. I'm sorry but you have no basis to say anything like that all, you are speaking out of ignorance and prejudice. There is no way anyone can define another person's love.

as for not being allowed in heaven, I think you should leave remarks like that out of the debate forum.

"Cinders right now I would say you would not be welcomed to the kingdom of heaven." - And I would say that based on YOUR bible, you have just committed a serious sin by saying that.

"you are speaking out of ignorance and prejudice. There is no way anyone can define another person's love." - Very well said.

That's ok, fariykiya, I don't want to go to your heaven anyway. :o)

I have plenty of friends who are against homosexuality for religious reasons, but they love me anyway. And I love them anyway, and even though I disagree with that view, I respect them for it because they respect me for mine. Hell, I even respect MajorDork for his views, even though I disagree with them whole-heartedly, because he states them in a non-judgmental way. Hate the sin, love the sinner, so to speak, right? Let he without sin cast the first stone and all that jazz.

It's been my experience that (some!!!) Christians these days follow the Old Testament more than the New One.

In you're view, maybe I'm wrong. And as an agnostic, I'm willing to admit that possibility as well (because like I've said before, the point of agnosticism is the willingness to admit ignorance). Though I do not understand why it would be wrong, and therefore I do not believe it to be wrong. However, because you have 'faith' you cannot admit that perhaps you are wrong, and that is a grave flaw in some religions in my opinion. Because you believe that 'faith' requires that you should not question, and should not doubt. I had a very Christian friend tell me that she believes faith is the opposite. She believes that you should doubt, that you should question, and that God will guide you on your personal journey through life, and you will eventually understand everything, when God believes you are ready. It is through questioning that she learned about her faith. She's also a friend who believes homosexuality is wrong, and yet she isn't afraid of me. Every time we meet, she smiles and hugs me and treats me like all of her friends because she recognizes that I have my own beliefs, and that I live a good life, and I help people. Additionally, she reserves judgment, and when I ask her what she thinks of my sexuality, she replies very diplomatically by saying (with a smile) "It's not my place to judge."

My other friend is also Christian, but she refuses to believe that a murderer on death row who repents out of fear is somehow more moral than a homosexual humanitarian. She is actually very passionate about this belief and stoutly fights for gay rights.

My point here (and I know it may not be abundantly clear because I'm supposed to be taking notes on Greek Mythology and keep getting distracted), is that if you want to curse me and say I won't go to heaven, that's no skin off my nose. Like I said, I don't share your beliefs, and you don't share mine. But like DrDevience said, as far as your religion states, you're committing a sin as grave as mine, so I'd be wary if I were you.

As for MajorDork... um... thank you for the mixed compliment. LOL! I love you too.

Zerstoren, you are quite wise.

fairykiya just seemed to push away some people in here. I see where she's coming from, but what some people tend to forget that we are ALL sinners & fall short of the Glory of God. We all have sins and will sin everyday thanks to Satan's EVER-SO-SUBTLE ways of fooling mankind.
Instead of telling people they'll burn in Hell for their sins, you gotta tell them of the boundless other promises God has if repentance is done.
God wants to forgive! He wants us back in His Kingdom! Salvation is so simple, if only people would be willing to see it.

"Cinders, sweetheart, don't flatter your self! You are not in love but it still falls under that emotion. RAPE falls under love perverted by the vices, be a rapist or a homosexual, you are still a sinner and need praying for.

You are NOT going to find love, only men and women find love. One day you will look back and wish you had just asked for repentence and righted your soul and mind.

Cinders right now I would say you would not be welcomed to the kingdom of heaven."

WTF. rape doesn`t fall under love perverted by the vices, it falls under INSANITY. homosexuality is love, it is NOT perverted by the vices. are homosexuals hurting someone? no, they`re spreading love, something Lord Jesus Christ ENCOURAGED. Love perverted by the vices would be jealousy, trying to control your partner/ something else that is hurting someone emotionally or physically. Honestly somehow I believe there are more ways to support homosexuality using the bible than NOT because you need to respect all sorts of people. I find it really weird that you just compared homosexuals to rapists, wtf.. I do NOT believe that homosexuality is a sin, & please don`t get me wrong I`m a very faithful catholic. Yes I will pray for homosexual couples but I`ll pray that I`m thankful they have found love, not that they are sinners who need to repent. Fairykiya, seriously, COME ON. PERSONALLY, I feel Cinders is MUCH MUCH MUCH more of a righteous soul than YOU. She does not go around spreading hatred & telling people wether they will be welcomed into the holy kingdom or not.

OK, now, I should also mention here that rape has nothing to do with love, and often nothing to do with sex. Law enforcement officers try to remind people that rape is about control and violence more than anything else.

In addition to that, I think everyone should just mellow out now. MajorDork is right, I'm sure fairykiya meant well, even if she can't exactly voice her thoughts in a very constructive manner. And since I was bothered by her, I may have been a bit snippy and my previous post actually doesn't make much sense because my attentions were divided. Thank you, Lila, for your kind words. But fairykiya and I have come to an obvious impasse, so I'm going to drop this argument there. So long as her views don't impose on anyone else, I know they don't effect how I'll live my life. Though I will never understand why she believes it's wrong, she doesn't seem inclined to explain it to me anyways, so...

I know who I love, and what love is. A common misconception about homosexuality is that it's a sexual fetish, like S&M, but "experts" (and I mean scholars, not homosexuals) agree that it's also about affection, and (surprise!) love. And if fairykiya wants to decide and dictate how I feel, in the face of scholars and homosexuals/bisexuals everywhere, that's fine with me. Nothing I say will change that anyway.

I feel kind of odd being the token bisexual in this debate spot...

Um... Oh yes. I want to go back to my repenting murderer versus homosexual humanitarian speech. Explain to me, someone, how the former goes to heaven and the latter goes to hell?

Hm... this post may come off as passive aggressive. Please note that it started out with good intentions.

I have an audition in twenty minutes so I have to go. Bye.

to majordork74: Thanks for agreeing and you are just to nice!

to lila856: I respect your views I have told you this but I now regret it because you don't pray for Cinders? The poor children thinks they are in love, it is disgraceful when a christian will not pray. Lila please don't encourage them, the lord also had lunch with prostitutes but that doesn't mean it is okay to be one!!!

to Cinders: Foolish you are not in love. You never will be until you decide to comes to terms with Jesus, the father and the son. I will drop this argument but I pray the lord have mercy on your soul. I am sorry for seeming to harsh before but I meen well and know it is not my place to judge, only to help.

You are a very contradictory person, and even when I point this out you never explain it.

I'm not fond of people who condescend to me, like you do, fairykiya, but I said I'll drop it so I won't expound on why I find your statements incredibly judgmental, even though you say you are not judging. Believe me when I say I'm chomping at the bit to keep from replying to you calling me foolish because in my eyes, I'm not the one being foolish. But all I ask from you is your respect, which your patronizing words obviously show that I don't have from you. And while I may be offended by you, and disagree with you, I still respect our differences.

*Passive aggression over*

I shall now do the common NEW TESTAMENT practice of turning the other cheek (but I'll grit my teeth as I do it).

PS: While I do not believe I need to be prayed for, I always recognize the gesture as a kind one, so thank you.

I'll end my input into this discussion with a vague statement! (How fun, right?)

'While you are standing high upon your moral pedestal looking down on us all, you are not looking up.'

*High-Fives Zerstoren*

I was going to give a very lengthy response, but I just realized it would be wasted effort.

darn, i see i missed a good debate here. i keep finding these and wishing i'd joined fanpop sooner!

I think that homosexuality is a psychological disturbance that happens to a child when he is 4-6 years old because of the interaction of his parents with him and then the sexual identity is shaped. That is why homosexuals believe that they were born that way because they do not have a recollection of ever being heterosexual. But I don't think you can pray the thing away, just like any psychological illness, if a person chooses to he can get better, getting better does not mean that he will never have a homosexual tendency ever again but it will mean that he will start to look and believe differently.
I am a christian and I believe that faith in God plays a pivotal role in this change and I've witnessed people change to the better.
All that being said, if a person chooses to remain homosexual he should never be condemned. Dividing the issue to genetic or choice is just silly, it's not both there are a million other factors that shape that and respect for humans whoever they are should never be compromised.

I repeat-- It's my opinion that homosexuality is not a psychological "illness" of any kind, nor is it a choice. My brother is 100% straight, and other than my mother bumping my head on the door frame when I was six months old (yes, as cliche as it is, it happened), my parents were as nurturing as any other, and treated me as they did with my brother. Similarly, I know three sisters, one of which is a lesbian, who were all treated the same way by their parents when they were young.

It is a preference, and a part of who you are, not a choice or an illness.

I understand you stated it in an "I think" way, and not claiming it as fact, but from experience I completely disagree with you.

And bliss-- As you can see, arguments can always be reignited. ;o)

apparently! that makes me happy, because i was getting tired of arguing over at the abortion debate :).

i agree with Cinders, i know of lots of siblings where one is straight and one is gay and their parents raised them exactly the same. homosexuality is not an illness or a sexual devience that can be beaten out of a person through therapy or prayer. nor is it unnatural - there are of plenty examples of homosexuality among animals, not just humans; and animals certainly aren't that way because they choose to live a "homosexual lifestyle".

*Pst*

You know Hercules, beloved symbol of masculinity and all things manliness?

HE WAS GAY!!!

I just wanted to say that.

Seriously though. He was. So was Achilles, for that matter. Their lovers were Hylas and Patroclus respectively.

gotta love the Greeks :).