Wow...I love to read these, but I always find myself repeating other's peoples points on why I like that couple better than that couple. I think I am the only person that likes both couples, and could be okay with either of them endgame.

sisi3191, i don't mean to bash Brucas or anything, but i can HONESTLY say that they don't love each other anymore. You can't really say they still LOVE EACH OTHER because that implies that they still have romantic feelings for each other. Yes they care about each other as friends, but it isn't really correct to say that they still love each other. The love they used to have (if any--as some people's opinions are) is in no way still there in their relationship today. I think they have made it completely clear and while they still care deeply about each other, they do not love each other in ANY romantic way. Just my opinion though. :)


<<but i think he shouldnt have showed us this huge love between brooke and lucas during s2/3 and then pretending they were not made for each other and brooke was only an obstacle between lucas and peyton like lindsay. i strongly believe if it werent for chophia divorce brucas would still be together!>>

Not to be rude, but Brooke was an obstacle. She knows it, we know it. it's a part of the love story between Lucas and Peyton and although some don't like it, others see it as just the inevitability that they can overcome anything and anyONE. Even Brooke wants a love like that. "Do you think that still exists anymore? A love so strong that no person can come between it?" She understands that the love between Leyton is so strong that anyone that tries to come between it is going to end up hurt and alone. It sounds terrible, but that's the point of the epic love story. of course it's more gracefully said than this, but i'm just trying to get to the point. Brucas was never portrayed as the couple that was 'made for each other', that's all Leyton. & not to step on you or anything, but Peyton is definately Luke's first love, therefore you are admitting that his feelings for Peyton will never go away, so how is he supposed to be with someone else while still loving Peyton? -if you look at the whole situation throughout the season it is apparent that that's why Brucas' relationship ended. She knew they didn't stand a chance and she couldn't be his Peyton. Luke didn't love Brooke in season 1, even the most hardcore Brucas fans can admit that. He loved Peyton it was obvious, and even if i weren't a Leyton fan (which would never happen, haha) i would be able to see that. LASTLY, THE BREAKUP BETWEEN CHOPHIA HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH BRUCAS!!!! I hate when people use that as an excuse. Mark even said from the pilot he designed a world where Lucas and Peyton were meant to be together! They would have broken up sooner or later (sooner rather than later) & even Brooke KNOWS that. I realllly don't want you to think i'm being mean, cuz i'm not.

tvfan5, you rock! lol i swear that whole post sounds WORD FOR WORD what my reply would have been! couldn't agree more! :)

it drives me absolutely insane when BL fans try and use the chophia split as a cop-out for brucas not lasting. im sorry but if you honestly ever believed that brucas was going to last past high school then you MUST not be watching the same show as all of us. as tvfan said, brucas was NEVER portrayed as the couple that was meant to be. infact, atleast half of their relationship was spent fighting over brooke's insecurities, because even she knew HERSELF that she didnt have what peyton had with lucas... and that they would never have the love and connection that leyton had.

if you interpreted brucas as meant to be, then its only becuase you WANTED to interpret them that way. but that sure isnt how they were planned or how they were written. everybody knows that brucas were going to split at some point anyway... even if you dont want to admit it. even if chad and sophia were still together, that wouldnt make BROOKE and LUCAS as characters any more right for eachother, or any more meant to be. brooke and lucas are NOT chad and sophia.

just because chophia could have been endgame doesnt mean that it was EVER a possibility for brucas to be endgame, because it wasnt... and we all know it. its been leyton since the pilot, chad and sophias relationship outside of the show has NOTHING to do with the fact that mark has always wanted leyton for his FICTIONAL tv show

if you interpreted brucas as meant to be, then its only becuase you WANTED to interpret them that way.
Well if we would've interpreted things the same way then we shouldn't be arguing right now and we'd ALL be shipping LP! It's just how you see LP as epic, and I don't. LMAO!

You know, I'm not one who relies on the meant to be-ness of a couple. I feel like I have my own mind, I have my own eyes. I know what I want and what I don't. And Brucas is who I want, not because I think they are meant to be, but because of how they were written. And you might be laughing at me now, cause you said half of Brucas' relationship is just about Brooke and her insecurities while Leyton is just ah, not like that. I know, it's crazy, the other half of the Brucas relationship wins the whole relationship of Leyton. :D

because even she knew HERSELF that she didnt have what peyton had with lucas...
In s1, that's true. It was very out there, she even talked to Peyton (Travis CD) and Lucas (rat's ass speech) about it. But mostly I think Brooke is just insecure, period. I think you guys are adoring LP so much to think that Brooke's insecurities is all about Peyton. Her parents are MIA and I'm sure that made a huge impact in her life. People used to see her as a brainless slut, some still see her as one. If you think Brooke is insecure about what Peyton had with Lucas, then you don't get Brooke at all.

its been leyton since the pilot
In defense of my fellow Brucas fans and when you put it that way, this is the.. well, not the best argument I have ever heard. I asked my friend why she likes Leyton and she gave me this answer and all I could do is give her a WTF look. Anyway, we ALL know this, Brooke wasn't even in the pilot. lol. But I have to give props to Sophia and Chad cause they acted sooo well together that people actually liked (even loved) them better than Leyton (or Hil and Chad), who, as everybody else claims, the epic couple of the show. Mark must be surprised.

I would not try to downplay LP in trying to explain why I am a Brucas fan. What's funny is how Brucas fans are being judged for shipping them when Brucas is all about sex and insecurities while LP fans are being judged for shipping a couple who cheats.

you honestly think that the only season brooke was insecure about lucas and peyton was season 1?!? you can say that you're "sure her parents not being there had something to do with her insecurities" all you want... but that reasoning was never written, we never saw any of that in the show. the only reasoning that was ever written and shown on screen for her insecurities was her relationship/connection with lucas... or lack there of.

brooke was CONSTANTLY insecure about brucas' relationship... it wasnt just in season 1. did you just happen to forget about these scenes too?:

-brooke finds the box of peytons stuff that lucas was keeping, and therefore decides that her and lucas are "just friends"

-"non-exclusively" dating lucas, because she knew that if she became exclusive with him, that she would eventually get her heart broken again... because lucas could never devote himself entirely to her when they were dating

-the infamous RAIN SCENE that brucas fans like to go on and on about (for some unknown reason to me), when she was BEGGING lucas to say mean things about peyton, and BEGGING lucas to tell her why he loved her (because she needed the reassurance)... that whole scene was just SO pathetic

-"i watched you rescue peyton, and i just wish you could rescue me" comment to lucas... enough said

-"the boy i love protected the girl that i love, and its the girl that he loves too. come on peyton we both know its true" comment to peyton... enough said

-Lucas: "i love you brooke, i dont know how else to say it"
brooke: "how about how you show it? i am not pushing you away lucas i'm holding on for dear life, but i need you to need me back. why didnt you call me while you were away, why wouldnt you tell me about the kiss, and why wont you ever just let me all the way in?" ...this conversation clearly shows that brooke does not have the relationship and closeness with lucas that she would like to have...

i mean i could go on and on with statements/actions brooke made through every season referring to her being insecure about her relationship... but those are just a few examples. brooke could never let go of the instinct that lucas was always holding on to peyton, and that leytons connection was SO much stronger than brucas', and that lucas was just never willing to put her first and let her all the way in like she wanted him to.

but yet, i dont remember one single scene where brooke was referring to being insecure because of her parents not being there? her parents not being there has nothing to do with her being insecure in her romantic relationships... the two aren't connected at all. so if you want to ignore the fact that lucas and brooke were never TRULY 110% happy and secure in their relationship.. and if you want to blame brookes insecurities on logic that was never even supported... then go right ahead i guess. but we just have to look at the facts here, and what was actually written and shown to us from the show... and that is that brooke was always insecure about her relationship with lucas. im sorry but thats just a fact, you cant argue that.

and i honestly dont mind being judged for "shipping a couple who cheats". call me crazy... but i would rather ship a couple who cheats WITH eachother, than ship a couple who cheat ON eachother. the fact that lucas and peyton cheated with eachother, but NEVER on eachother only shows that no one can come between them... but the same cant be said for lucas' relationship with brooke, or even lindsey for that matter

^^ toatally agree

Okay here i go.
So over the past 6 years, i have heard many people say, Lucas and Peyton belong together. WELL IM HERE TO TELL YOU, YOU ARE WRONG !
when rachel and lucas went on that date bc of the boy fantasy draft, Rachel said to lucas, if you get this shot in , you and Brooke belong together, and YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENED !!! HE GOT IT IN !!!! AND WHY DOES MARK SCHWAN HAVE TO LEAD BRUCAS FANS ON WITH THE WHOLE DREAM SCENE AND THEN JUST TAKE IT AWAY. ITS NOT FAIR.

PEYTON IS A BACK STABBING TWO FACED BITCH. SHES IS THE WORST BEST FRIEND IN ALL OF HISTORY. BROOKE CAME BACK TO TREEE HILL TO HELP PEYTON , GET HER ON HER FEET, LEND HER MONEY FOR HER GAY ASS STUDIO. WAS TEHRE FOR HER WHEN BOTH HER MOM'S DIED. AND WHAT THE HELL DOES PEYTON DO? SHE CHEATES ON HER BESTFRIEND WITH HER BOYFRIEND. TWICE !!!!!! REAL CLASSY.

^peyton/brookes friendship has nothing to do with peyton and lucas as a couple though, or their feelings for eachother. the fact that you think peyton is a terrible friend to brooke is all well and good... but that doesnt make her and lucas any less meant to be, or any less in love.

a couple that cheats on eachother will never be meant to be. a couple that has as many fights and insecurities as brucas did will never be meant to be. a couple that does NOT have "a love so strong that nothing or no one could come between it" will never be meant to be. period.

if all you have in brucas' favor is that god almighty rachel gatina tried to determine fate for them... well.. then that really doesnt say much.

again, you can bash peyton as a friend to brooke all you want, but that doesnt say anything about the love between her and lucas

a couple that cheats on eachother will never be meant to be.

If you want to try and use that logic: A couple that has to resort to cheating to be together will never be meant to be.

I've said it so many times but I will say it again. The whole "their feelings for each other were just too much to resist" excuse is bullshit. Cheating is cheating. If LP were as epic as you'd like to believe, they would have been able to hold out until neither of them were in a relationship.

I'm not going to sit here and debate the Chophia stuff, or whether Brooke was purely an obstacle, because you will never listen to reason. Mark is a liar plain and simple. As much as you guys like to point out the pro LP stuff he's said, you somehow neglect to ever mention all the stuff he told BL fans.

"Do i think that Lucas and Peyton were designed as soulmates & destined to be together? Well, there was a lot of that, sure. Do i insist that that's the journey that we will absolutely take? No, it's not and do i acknowledge that Lucas & Brooke and Chad & Sophia have great chemistry? Absolutely they do. Never say never with any of this."

And then for the LP fans that say Chophia divorcing had nothing to do with the BL breakup:

"There are also all kinds of other things that enter into that picture. Not to mention, look Chad and Sophia get along wonderfully. But they were married. I think you have to understand that first and foremost we're all human beings and we, you know they are wonderful at creating characters and playing roles..."

^^^ That immediately followed the first quote i posted. So if CS had no effect on their characters, why did Mark feel the need to bring it up?? Why emphasize that they had a previous relationship?

Our two ships are never going to see eye to eye on the whole cheating issue... That's just fact. All I'm going to say about that is that at the end of the day, I would much rather ship a couple that cheat WITH eachother, than ship a couple that cheat ON eachother.

Yes you can use the cheating incidents as negative points for Brooke/Peyton, and Brooke/Lucas... But as far as leytons feelings for eachother and their relationship goes... That will NEVER be a negative point against them. Yes cheating is cheating, and it sucks... But at the end of the day it only speaks volumes about leytons feelings for eachother and their desire to be together. That's just the way it is. If you want to use that as a point against them being epic then that's up to you I guess. But to me, it just shows that much more how much they want to be together and for how long they have

i understand you saying: "I would much rather ship a couple that cheat WITH eachother, than ship a couple that cheat ON eachother" and in general- i probably agree. but i hate both situations and would never want either.

but i disagree when you say that lucas cheating on his girlfriend with peyton "speaks volumes about leytons feelings for eachother and their desire to be together." i think it says that brooke and lucas's 1st season relationship was not functioning the way it should have been, i think it says that lucas had certain problems with the relationship or certain needs that weren't being fulfilled by the relationship--- but i think it says nothing about leyton's feelings for each other.
for example, when a man cheats on his wife- more often than not, he is not cheating because he is in love with the other woman, or because he doesn't want to be with his wife, or because the other woman means more to him than his wife. he cheats on his wife because there is something missing from his marriage or there are problems in his marriage- so he looks for some sort of comfort elsewhere. most of the time, a man will not end things with his wife (even if he tells his mistress that he will) because the act of cheating has very little do with who he is cheating with, and much more to do with who he is cheating on.
in the case of OTH- lucas had the opportunity to end things with brooke, yet he stayed with her (maybe he was going to end things and then he got into the car accident, but he had opportunities before that incident as well). i think lucas and brooke may have been cute in the first season when they did scenes together, but they were not in a good relationship.
so it was definitely a negative point for brooke and lucas's relationship, as well as brooke and peyton's friendship. but i think it actually says very little about lucas and peyton's feelings for one another.
and if lucas and peyton were the one exceptional case in which a man cheats on his significant other simply because he is "in love" with the other woman....well then i still have trouble seeing that perspective because why would you choose to sneak around, choose to keep your relationship a secret, choose to stay in a relationship with another woman-- when you could choose to be honest and open and display love for what it is (something completely honest and completely open)
the only reason seems to me....that lucas was more excited by the idea of sneaking around, and maybe even embarassed of himself or embarassed of peyton--- cause otherwise he could have ended his relationship with brooke and (while it would take some time...) then build a healthy relationship with peyton.

lucas cheating on brooke.....explains why brucas's relationship wasn't healthy in the first season. lucas cheating on brooke with peyton....explains why leyton's relationship was not really existent in the first season, and was not healthy.

What?!? Are you honestly talking about the same show as the rest of us?? What is all this talk about Lucas not wanting to end things with Brooke in season 1, and just "liking the thrill of sneaking around"?? Lucas was the one BEGGING Peyton to be honest with Brooke about leytons feelings for eachother, and constantly professing his FEELINGS for Peyton and his NEED to be with her left and right. There is no way you can say that Lucas and Peyton cheating (in season 1 especially) had little or nothing to do with their feelings for eachother. Lucas did NOT like the thrill of sneaking around, which is why he was trying so hard to convince Peyton that they need to be honest with Brooke and stop hiding their feelings for eachother.

You're obviously having trouble recalling season 1, because you said that "Lucas chose to stay with Brooke, and may have planned in ending things before the accident...", but you leave out that Lucas DID NOT end up staying with Brooke. He broke up with her as soon as he got out of the hospital (so that he could be with Peyton)

It was WAY more than just cheating for both Lucas and Peyton. Do you not recall this little significant moment in peytons car on their way home from the hotel:

peyton: "we got carried away, it didn't mean anything"
Lucas: "it didn't?" (with hurt look on his face)
Peyton: "ofcourse it did"

after which is when Lucas immediately starts acknowledging his feelings for Peyton as soon as they get home... And starts PLANNING TO BREAK UP WITH BROOKE. Peyton was the one that didn't want to hurt Brooke, but Lucas was all for it if that is what it took to be with Peyton. His exact words were that "he had been hiding with Brooke, and he doesn't want to hide anymore"

I could go on and on... But I think it's pretty clear that the cheating between leyton had to do with BOTH the lack of something in brucas' relationship, AND more importantly... Lucas' want and need to be with Peyton!

Leyton.

Lucas is too much of an ass to deserve Brooke.

Hey! I'm not necessarily new here but I don't post very often and I try to avoid Brucas vs. Leyton debates as much as possible but there are just some things I feel I have to respond to. I've noticed that "TheBoySawAComet" takes a lot of scenes WAAAAY out of context. She reminds me of someone I used to debate with a lot in another forum(except, with a bunch of grammatical errors). Anyway...

-"non-exclusively" dating lucas, because she knew that if she became exclusive with him, that she would eventually get her heart broken again... because lucas could never devote himself entirely to her when they were dating

Not exactly. It wasn't because she "knew she was going to get her heart broken again". It was because she didn't want to get her heart broken again. There's a big difference in all that. She wanted to know if Lucas was all for her this time around, and as far as I'm concerned, he was. There was no proof or evidence that Lucas was withholding any feelings for Peyton until his stupid little revelation in 4x09. After that it just became a bunch of Brucas takebacks.

-the infamous RAIN SCENE that brucas fans like to go on and on about (for some unknown reason to me), when she was BEGGING lucas to say mean things about peyton, and BEGGING lucas to tell her why he loved her (because she needed the reassurance)... that whole scene was just SO pathetic

Begging? That's a tad bit of an exaggeration, don't you think? As a matter of fact, she didn't even ask him to say bad things about Peyton. She told him, "It's okay, you can say bad things about her." In other words, she just didn't want to believe that Lucas thought Peyton was "perfect"(and according to that ridiculous OOC retconed 'angel' line during the Leyton wedding, I guess he does think she's perfect -- I'm rolling my eyes right now because it's sad that Leyton fans bought that).

And also, she didn't beg him to tell her why he loves her. She only had to ask him one time and he was more than happy and willing to let her know why he loved her(even if it took all night in the rain).

And honestly, I could just make a response to every asinine thing you've been saying lately but I'd just leave it here because those two were the ones that bothered me most. I really don't want to make an extra long post where we go back and forth and keep saying the same thing because you have one (extremely exaggerated) perspective on things and I have another. I've chewed through Brucas vs. Leyton debates so many times my jaw got dislocated.

Brucas just had the better development and they seem more real to me. That's all.

^ lol I can see why you would like to think/wish that my points and views were exaggerated... But I hate to break it to you... Everything I said is backed up in the show. If you want to take the term "begging" literally, then go ahead. But my point was that it was absolutely pathetic that Brooke would have to ask Lucas even ONCE why he loved her, or to tell him even ONCE to say mean things about Peyton. Lucas should have been willing to show and reassure brooke that he loved her on his own, without having to have it forced out of him by brooke. if their relationship was the way it should be, then brooke would have already known that lucas loved her, and why he loved her.

Did we ever hear Peyton ask Lucas to reassure her that he loved her when they were together? Did we ever hear Peyton tell Lucas to say mean things about Brooke? No. Not once. Because Peyton was secure with her love from Lucas, and knew that she had NOTHING or NO ONE to be threatened by. she didnt walk around 24/7 being paranoid that Lucas didn't love her as much as he loved someone else. she KNEW that she was the only girl in Lucas' life, because Lucas showed that to her. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for Brooke

Oh, and even if brucas did have the "better developement" (according to you, anyway), that doesn't make their actual relationship good. Good build up is one thing... But a good relationship is an entirely different story. I'd rather have a good, healthy, stable relationship than just good build up anyday

Wow...I still love this debate. I love to read everybody's opinions. Honestly this love triangle is just epic (even though I hate that word). Both couples had their great moments, but honestly when it comes down to it, Leyton is the couple that is meant to be. Brooke and Lucas were great together, I am not bashing them in anyway. Brooke and Lucas were in love and they will always love each other, but it's a different kind of love than Peyton and Luke have.

Peyton and Lucas are just meant to be. Their history speaks for them. In a way, there are more meant to be than Naley. They have gone through so much, but yet they still love each other. Lucas wrote two books about Peyton, you can't deny that fact.

And for people who say they look like brother and sister, ya'll are just nuts. lol

If you want to take the term "begging" literally, then go ahead. But my point was that it was absolutely pathetic that Brooke would have to ask Lucas even ONCE why he loved her, or to tell him even ONCE to say mean things about Peyton.

Still with the exaggeration? I'm not taking the term "begging" literally. The rain scene, in no way, associated itself with the term beg. She didn't ask or tell him to say mean things about Peyton. She told him he could say bad things about her. You're blowing that entire thing out of proportion. And she didn't ask him why he loves her, either. She asked him why he chose her that time. In case you forgot, he chose her best friend the last time. It's not fair of you to bring down their entire relationship because Brooke is human. I'm sure if the tables turned it would be no different from Peyton.

Unfortunately, I can't say the same for Brooke

Again with the exaggerations? Brooke lets out her fears and insecurities a few times and all of a sudden she's walking on eggshells 24/7 and he entire relationship with Lucas is a sham. You're being ridiculous.

Her insecurities about Peyton didn't effect their relationship at all. Of course they talked about it once or twice but when Peyton's mom died did Brooke advise Lucas to stay away from Peyton? No. As I recall, she hugged Peyton and motioned Lucas to come comfort her as well. But I never see you bring that up. And when Keith died, did her insecurities stop her from being there for Lucas? Absolutely not. Disregarding her insecurities(also known as a natural human emotion to most people), her relationship with Lucas was an amazing one.

Oh, and even if brucas did have the "better developement" (according to you, anyway), that doesn't make their actual relationship good.

Oh? But her feelings make their relationship a bad one?

Look, if you like to think that I am exaggerating... Then you have every right to. I however, still don't understand how it could be considered exaggerating when what I say IS backed up in the show. Just like you say that I am "looking way too much into it", I don't think you are looking enough into it, and I think you are just choosing to skim the surface of brucas' problems, because you're in denial about how unealthy their relationship truly was. if the roles were reversed, and it were Peyton that was insecure about lucas' love for Brooke, I'm sure you would have very different views on this whole thing.

And yes, brookes feelings do make their relationship a bad one for me, because she had those feelings of insecurity for a reason. Because Lucas never took the time or made the effort to show Brooke that he loved her on his own. If he did, then Brooke wouldn't have had to ask him why he does love her. (which she DID ask him!) remember this statement?:

Lucas: the truth is I care about Peyton
Brooke: then what is the difference?
Lucas: the difference? The difference is I love you Brooke
Brooke: but WHY? I need to know why!

...sad...

^It's funny how you left out an important quote in that exchange.

Lucas: The difference? The difference is I love you, Brooke. I want to be with you, not Peyton.
Brooke: But why? I need to know why!

And correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't that coincide with what she asked earlier.

Brooke: And I never sent my letters to you either but they still meant something! Just tell me, why me this time? Why not Peyton?

You said: I however, still don't understand how it could be considered exaggerating when what I say IS backed up in the show.

In which way? Your only defense of Brooke and Lucas's terrible relationship is that Brooke was insecure about her history with Lucas (because we all know he never cheated on her in the past, right?). You completely disregard everything else because of two conversations between Brucas... one which happened after she found out her backstabbing best friend kissed her boyfriend and he didn't tell her. How can you possibly hold that against her?

Lucas never took the time or made the effort to show Brooke that he loved her on his own.

What did he do with Peyton that was so magical but failed to do with Brooke(you know, other than the fact that his relationship with Brooke was developed from something real, whereas his relationship with Peyton is surfaced from mere fantasy)?

...sad...

What's sad it how Peyton spent ALL of season 5 pining over Lucas and trying to steal him... again.

Look, we could go back and forth all day long... I feel like we're just saying the same crap over and over, and I'm not about to keep repeating myself. Clearly we just interpreted the show and the triangle differently, and we are NEVER going to agree on any of it. I've wasted enough of my time trying to get my points across, but we're clearly coming at this issue from two totally different stand points... Which isn't going to get anywhere.

You like the couple that brucas used to be, I don't.

I like the couple that leyton is/used to be, you don't.

Let's just leave it at that because there's no point in us trying to force our opinions on eachother, when obviously they're never going to be accepted by either of us... It's just going to turn into a fight at this point

... I told myself I was just going to leave the discussion alone but I have to get a few last words out or something.

I'm not trying to force my opinion on you and I didn't think you were forcing it on me either. I'm just trying to give you a different perspective. And to be honest, you REALLY need a different perspective because you clearly have on your pessimism goggles on when it comes to Brucas.

Okay... that's all. We can drop it now.

so let me get this straight. i "REALLY need a different perspective, because i have my pessimism goggles on", but you don't? your perspectives about leyton are fine, huh? right.

i don't have any goggles on when it comes to brucas, i just see what i see, and i feel what i feel... and i've developed those feelings about brucas for a reason. i didnt just wake up one day and think to myself "i'm going to chose to hate brucas and refuse to accept anything good about them"... brucas themselves is what turned me off from them, it wasn't a choice made by me because i just dont want to like them or because i have any "goggles" on

so let me get this straight. i "REALLY need a different perspective, because i have my pessimism goggles on", but you don't? your perspectives about leyton are fine, huh? right.

I've never made claims that Leyton is a horrible couple, despite the really crappy things Lucas may have done to Peyton(kissing her and then proposing to his girlfriend. I'm sorry but that trumps Lucas cheating on Brooke, anyday). I can accept that Leyton seem to have a good relationship. The only time I said anything remotely distasteful towards LP was when I said that BL had better development. And they did.

I always felt like LP were for the romantics. And not even in a "epic love" type of way but in a "love at first sight" type of way. They never had any real development and Mark practically says these things in interviews but doesn't realize it. He constantly talks about how he feels that Leyton were "destined" to be together from the moment Lucas said "I'll be seeing ya." I'm sorry, but that doesn't make an epic romance for me. Sorry.

BL shippers got to see their relationship grow from step 1. At first, Lucas didn't seem very interested in Brooke(though, sometimes he'd entertain her advances). Then, when he saw a different side to her than that crazy wild girl in 1x08, he decided to give it a real shot with her. He decided to get to know her. And it turns out, he really liked her(please don't tell me you're one of those people who think he didn't care about Brooke in season 1 -- even though he said, "I lost two girls I really cared about." in 1x19, I think).

After hurting and betraying his trust with Brooke in season 1, they decided to be civil in season 2. Until 2x08 where they had a deep conversation and decided that they wanted to BE friends. We got to see Brooke struggle to grab his hand(indicating that she was putting her trust in him, once again). And, from that friendship, we saw it grow into something more from BOTH sides.

Season 3 speaks for itself but you have an entirely different perspective than what really happened so I won't really detail it.

My point is, we didn't really get that with LP. It's just always been implied that they were friends. I remember in 4x01 when they were playing the music game then Lucas comments how he missed hanging with Peyton like that. I hate that line because I always ask myself, "When was the first time he hung out with Peyton like that?" It would've made sense if he told it to Brooke but not Peyton. One of my friends defended that they built a friendship between seasons 2 and 3. Fine. But doesn't that cheapen the epic romance when we couldn't even see the friendship build itself?

But anyway, that's why I ship Brucas. And I dislike LP, not because of their imaginary bad relationship but because they bring out the worst in each other sometimes(season 1 & season 5) and because Mark used their relationship to spit on Brucas so many times it became unacceptable.

I still don't understand where you are getting the idea that we never saw the friendship between leyton. More often than not, I hear brucas fans complaining about the fact that they can't see the romance between leyton because they have been TOO CLOSE of friends throughout the series.

Aside from that though, if all those reasons are the ways that you interpreted leyton vs brucas, then you have fair reasons for preferring brucas. I however, as you know, interpreted the triangle VERY differently than you did. I could write a novel about why I feel like leyton is the better couple, but I honestly just don't have the energy to do that at this point. Actually if you browse through this forum I'm sure you'll find all my reasons.

But for now let's just call it a day and agree to disagree

But for now let's just call it a day and agree to disagree

And how.

I don't care what people said for them!
Brucas had to end up together!

I just have to say, that I love BRUCAS! I really hope they stay together in the next season like the other couples!

janyoung101, have you watched season 4, 5, 6? Because I don't want to give anything away if you aren't that far..but that isn't what is going on..at all.

ya...FAR FROM IT! BTW...For me the better couple is LEYTON!!! TRUE LOVE ALWAYS!!!

TRUE LOVE NEVER =]

Brucas had something special.
They were different and so what they werent meant to be in marks mind, but mark isnt cupid and sooo jus because leyton was meant to be with mark, that means nothing.

Brucas should have been endgame, and we have seasons of them together to prove it =]

^okay, but in all fairness, just like you say "just because Leyton was meant to be with Mark, that means nothing"... the same can apply to you believing that Brucas are meant to be. Just because YOU feel that way, that doesn't really mean anything, or make it fact either. saying that Mark's views "mean nothing" doesn't even make sense. OFCOURSE his views mean something, its HIS show, and his views are going to affect the outcome of the show... obvoiusly. so yes, clearly his views and opinions do mean something.

you may not agree with what Mark wanted for his show... but in tree hill world... he is basically god. and at the end of the day, it's HIS show, and he is obviously going to pick the couple that he thinks is the right choice, and the endgame couples that he feels are special enough to represent his show. if he believed in what Brucas had, and if he thought they were meant to be, then surely he would have picked them to be endgame. but he didn't. you may not agree with how Mark felt about BL, but really... it's how HE feels that really matters.

oh and believe me, we have plenty of seasons of Leyton being together that proves that they are endgame worthy too

I never knew going behind your bestfriends/girlfreinds back was endgame worthy?
I never knew getting shot in the leg then kissing your bestfriends bf was engame worthy?
I never knew saying, not yet was endgame worthy?
I never knew never actually offically dating was endgame worthy?
Because stop me if im wrong, have Leyton ever just dated?
LIke left out the bullshit in there life and dated?
I dont think so.... They never just dated, and that doesnt symbolise love or prove they were meant to be....
Becausee yes, they alwways found there way back to one another (in lpers eyes) but really how much times you gotta lose that person to know you love them?
Normal realtionships, just date. without the bullshit... like Brucas, who had fights and their up and downs but they dated and where offically a couple, without the lying or cheating or brickering and being cheesy.

I never knew never actually offically dating was endgame worthy?
Didn't LP officially date back in S4?? I don't think they had any Brooke/triangle problems when they got together. The only thing i remembered that was called "Bullshit" was that sex tape with NB, but that was just with NBP.

Oh yeah season 4.... i remember that, they did date didnt they... You know after Lucas said "oh" to Peyton when she said i love you... and after Lucas kept fighting for Brooke and saying peyton was a great friend.
and Lucas only went after Peyton when Brooke told him, just like Peyton went after Lucas when Jake told her.
It's funny how the only way for them to be together and complete this "fantastic TLA" thing they have going on is by getting told by others...

Well, doesn't really matter how they got together, bottom line is, they DID date.

For a brief period of time.

monLOVEbrucas... i'm sorry, but are we even talking about the same show here??? who the hell cares if LP "didn't officially" date for a long enough time to meet your standards? just because they weren't an official couple as long as Brucas was in high school, doesn't mean that they still didn't have a great relationship, or that they didn't still have romantic moments, or that they don't have a romantic history, or that they aren't qualified to be endgame. i'm sorry, but that's probably the most ridiculous logic i've ever heard of. the fact that they weren't an official couple other than season 4 doesn't erase their season 1 romance, and it doesn't erase the CONSTANT romantic signs and actions by them throughout the whole series, that hinted that they would end up together. you're trying to tell me that their whole season 1 romance means nothing, just because they weren't an official couple? or that it means nothing, just because they did it behind Brooke's back? give me a break. yes it sucks that they cheated on Brooke, but that has nothing to do with Leyton's feelings for EACHOTHER. the fact that they went behind Brookes back sucks for their relationships with Brooke, but that doesn't take anything away from how Lucas and Peyton felt about eachother.

and as far as Brucas being endgame worthy goes...

-I never knew that Brooke pathetically throwing herself at Lucas in season 1, when he made it clear that he was interested in Peyton was endgame worthy?
-I never knew that Brooke waiting until Peyton was UNCONCIOUS to swoop in on Lucas, when she knew that Leyton had feelings for eachother was endgame worthy? (season 1... Lucas and Brooke are taking care of Peyton at her house after she was slipped drugs. and Brooke conveniently uses the opportunity to get closer to Lucas, knowing perfectly well the circumstance that Leyton was going through, and their feelings that were there)
-I never knew that Lucas BREAKING UP WITH BROOKE to be with Peyton was endgame worthy? (Lucas only went back to Brooke in season 2 after Peyton already made it clear to him that they COULDNT HAPPEN, because she couldn't hurt Brooke. Peyton was no longer an option for him)
-I never knew that cheating on your girlfriend TWICE was endgame worthy? (Peyton initiated it, but Lucas LET IT happen both times, his words. and he even continued it himself in the hotel room)
-I never knew that Brooke FAKING A PREGNANCY to get back at Lucas was endgame worthy?
-I never knew that "non exclusively" dating somebody was endgame worthy
-I never knew that Brooke sleeping with Chris Keller when she supposedly was convinced that Lucas was "the one" for her was endgame worthy?
-I never knew that Lucas saying "i'm NOT the guy for you Brooke Davis" was endgame worthy? (you can argue about Lucas saying "oh" or "i hate you" to Peyton all you want, but he atleast took both of those things back. he NEVER took back the fact that he wasn't the guy for Brooke)
-I never knew that Lucas NEVER making Brooke a priority was endgame worthy?
-I never knew that Brooke feeling constant insecurities about not having the emotional connection that Lucas and PEYTON had was endgame worthy?
-I never knew that having more UNHAPPY times than happy times together was endgame worthy?
-I NEVER KNEW THAT DATING SOMEONE IN HIGH SCHOOL WAS ENDGAME WORTHY (no matter if you date for 3 weeks, or 3 years... its still JUST a high school relationship, that doesn't garauntee that you will, or should end up together)
-I never knew that someone not being willing to fight for their boyfriend or girlfriend was endgame worthy? (Brooke telling Lucas in season 4 that she's not going to fight for him... thus the i'm not the guy for you quote)
-I never knew that Brooke going to PEYTON for help on how to connect with her own boyfriend was endgame worthy?
-I never knew that BOTH LUCAS AND BROOKE ACKNOWLEDGING THAT THEY DONT HAVE A LOVE "SO STRONG THAT NOTHING OR NO ONE COULD COME BETWEEN IT" was endgame worthy?
-I never knew that Brooke being defined as someone who was "just for fun" was endgame worthy? (Lucas' statement to Nikki in season 1, "i had two girlfriends. one was just for fun, and one i had this deep emotional connection to")
-I never knew that Lucas saying to Peyton "Brooke's great... but SHE'S NOT YOU" was endgame worthy?
-I never knew that Lucas using recycled words to Brooke in a letter, that he had already used in a letter to PEYTON first was endgame worthy?
-I never knew that Lucas choosing to leave Brooke's side during the school shooting was endgame worthy?
-I never knew that Brooke acknowledging that Lucas loved Peyton in season 3 made Brucas endgame worthy? ("the boy i love saved the girl that i love, and its the girl that HE LOVES TOO. come on Peyton, WE BOTH KNOW ITS TRUE")
-I never knew that having PRECIOUS nicknames for eachother (boyfriend/pretty girl) automatically made you endgame worthy? who needs a healthy relationship, as long as you've got nicknames right? not.
-I never knew that Lucas NEVER letting Brooke all the way in was endgame worthy?
-I never knew that Lucas not being there for Brooke after she was attacked in season 6 was endgame worthy? (people claim that Lucas never saved Brooke, because she never needed it. well... she definitely needed it in season 6. and Lucas was nowhere to be found. he had bigger priorities... his new fiance, Peyton!)
-I never knew that Lucas writing two books about being IN LOVE WITH PEYTON made Brucas endgame worthy? (yes, Brooke was the other half of his first book... blah blah blah. but clearly she wasn't written in the same aspect that Peyton was written. because everyone went on and on about how the first book was a love letter to PEYTON, not Brooke. Brooke is obviously a big part of the book because she was a big part of his past. that doesn't mean that her and Peyton were written in the same way. because they clearly weren't)
-I never knew that Brucas' ridiculous kiss in NY (even though they spent the WHOLE time talking about how upset he was about losing Peyton) was endgame worthy?
-I never knew that Lucas NEVER proposing to Brooke, but proposing to Peyton like 3 times made Brucas endgame worthy?
-I never knew that Brooke being LEYTONS #1 FAN, and saying things like "it has always been Lucas and Peyton, you guys are meant to be together its the way it's supposed to be", "it's clear from the book that if you're not Lucas or Peyton, you should just forget it", "you have to go out there and become the best writer you can possibly be. then you approach peyton. and if she comes back, then you KNOW ITS MEANT TO BE", "are you kidding? the rest of the world has been waiting on you two idiots since high school"... and other countless famous Brooke quotes regarding Leyton made Brucas endgame worthy??

....should i go on?? because believe me, i can. you can point out all the things in the world that you don't like about Leyton, and all the reasons that you don't think they are endgame worthy. but it works both ways... there are PLENTY of reasons why a lot of us (and Mark) wouldn't consider BL as endgame worthy either :)

^ Haha WOOOOOORD!!! perfectly said!
I could add quite a few things to that list too, but I doubt that's a debate that BL fans want to get into, for understandable reasons lol. No matter what anyone says, there are DEFINITELY more reasons why BL shouldn't have been endgame, than reasons why Leyton shouldn't have. I'm sorry but that's just fact lol

all I'm going to say is... who really cares how long a couple officially dates for? What good does it do to date somebody, if you're going to be unhappy in the relationship 70% of the time? And brucas were unhappy that much, whether BL fans want to admit it or not. How long you date a person means nothing. It's about your overall relationship, history, and connection with that person, whether your an official couple or not. And LP have all of those things going for them, even though they weren't "official" in high school for as long as Brucas were. And obviously whatever Lucas and Peyton had in high school was strong enough to make it PAST high school, unlike what Brucas had

Just stop. For once in your miserable life, just stop Kelly.

Mon didn't need to come at you with that little list, but you just prove over and over again that you are such an immatture drama queen. I'm not even going to read that list to see what kind of ridiculous shit you twisted to try and make your point, but grow up.

BOTH OF YOU. Mon, i love you, you know i have your back on pretty much everything, but I'm tired of this bullshit drama. LUCAS AND PEYTON ARE GONE. THE BRUCAS VS LEYTON WAR IS OFFICIALLY OVER. THERE LITERALLY IS NO POSSIBILITY OF ANYTHING BETWEEN ANY OF THEM ON THE SHOW ANYMORE.

You people just need to stop. I'm so fucking sick of none of you being able to let a person speak their opinion. There IS such a thing as politely disagreeing WITHOUT STARTING YET ANOTHER POINTLESS ARGUMENT!!!

What is it that is so hard to understand about that??

^ where the hell do you think you are right now?? This is a LEYTON VS BRUCAS forum, so don't come in here and start telling people to stop "arguing" about Leyton and Brucas. And I couldn't care less if you read my list, I didn't make it for you. I made it in response to the list that was FIRST made by a BLer.

Newsflash... the LP/BL debates are never going to end. That's just common sense. so I suggest you get off your high horse right now, and just accept that... instead of telling other people what to do. Or here's an idea... if you're tired of reading the Leyton vs Brucas debates, how about you GET OUT OF THE LEYTON VS BRUCAS FORUM. What a concept.

Why on earth would you go into a place MEANT for debating about LP/BL, and tell people to stop talking about them? We can debate about Leyton and Brucas until hell freezes over if we want to... especially if we are doing it in a post dedicated to doing that. Get over it, and if you are so tired of reading it, then what the hell are you doing here? I mean OTHER than acting like everyones mother, when no one was even doing anything wrong? Quit already with the condescending little lectures. We were debating Leyton and Brucas in a place that's dedicated to doing that... sue us. Or if you don't like it... get out

"what is it that is so hard to understand about that"???

I prefer Peyton to Brooke but really? Brucas is meant to be, i guess. Peyton should've been with Jake and stop interrupting the true love between Lucas and Brooke.

What good does it do to date somebody, if you're going to be unhappy in the relationship 70% of the time? And brucas were unhappy that much, whether BL fans want to admit it or not.

Are we watching the same show?!

Now me xD ...Eh...why are you even discussing this? I don't believe it'll change people's mind about what couple they prefer and in the end...Leyton's endgame, so it doesn't change anything really (=
And it's kinda sad HOW you're discussing it...by insulting each other, really? I mean we all love One Tree Hill, isn't that enough?
Sorry...just wanted to say that...go on ( :

BEST. DEBATE. FORUM TOPIC. EVER.

I had fun reading this! And since I do love BL but JP still comes first to me, I cannot participate completely here but I do not ever and will never support LP TLA, so just wanna post links to my arguments in these comprehensive articles if anyone is interested to read it.

link

link

link

But you can go ahead and ignore them. Just wanna say you guys (both LPers and BLers) are doing a great job defending your ships and not raising the white flag!! <3

Hey, im new on the forum board and new in this debate too. I saw the whole Leyton v Brucas thing, and i thought in most places your not allowed to argue or debate anything (not that i'm on here to argue with anyone, so i think that its really great that on here we have permission to put our idea's acroos for who should AND WHO SHOULDNT be end game.
I am a full, 100% from the pilon Leyton supporter, i believe that they are the two people that deserve and belong to be together, and ill tell you why. Lucas loved Peyton roght from the very beginning, he liked her in freshmore year, sophmore year, junior year nd he used write things in his prediction box like 'this year ill talk to peyton sawyer', this shows that from the very beginning he was interested in peyton, he wanted peyton and he loved peyton, plus leyton were focused on all in the pilot before we even met brooke proving that the lucas/peyton story wa sgonna be a long one. Luca swas the first person that Peyton ever let in, she shut out everybody else, he was the ony one that could get through to her and the only one she responded too, he saw her 'right down into her soul'. Lucas always thinks of Peyton first, eg. 1x08 peytons drink is spiked, he leaves runs and doesent leave until he knows that shes ok, 3x16, he didnt leave safetly with brooke, he went straught in because he knew that he coulnt face life without her, even in like season 5 in 5x08 when both her and lindsey are mad at him he seems more bothered about peyton. Everyone else that has been with Lucas has had doubts about their relationship because they are scared of his history with peyton, because even they can see that he really wants her, brooke was jelous, lindsey was jelous, peyton is never jelous because she knows that their the only ones eachothe want, both jake and julian were also jelous of lucas, but lucas has never been jelous. You can see the love with leyton, how meant to be they are and that nomatter what they always go back to eachother, they always end up backtogether, they inspire eachother by saying simple things like 'your art matters' and lucas even said himself to peyton 'its you' which means its her the one he wants. Luke wrote 2 whole books about how much he loves peyton and about their romance. Like when lindse realised that it was the car and not the star(L) Even Brooke said 'it has always been lucas and peyton' which means the BR out of brucas has even realised it by now.
To me lucas and peyton are soulmates, and the strongest love on tv, because they genuinally were meant to be together and in my oppinion they were always gonna be, i never for a minute thought that they wouldnt be endgame. Im so happy that they got thair fairytale ending with sawyer -together.
I do actually like Brooke, more than i like peyton but ive always liked Leyton. I think that all relationships that lucas or peyton have had are just leytons way of tryong to get pver eachother, because they are scared of how much they love eachother. Just think Brucas came after leyton broke up, Jeyton too. Lindsey and Lucas and Peyton and julian came after they broke up. I think lucas soes love brooke, as a friend, Lucas will always love epyton more than he loves brooke, as a matter of fact, Lucas will always love Peytn more than he loves anybody.

^YES! Perfectly said!

^ thankyou :)

LEYTON all the way they were meant for eachother from the beginning.

Adam and eve werent meant to eat the apple, BUT THEY DID!