RealLuvAlwaysBL Leytonfan4ever, humor me while I respond to the points you made: 1. About the roses. Considering it is a QOH from a standard deck I'm going to assume that the yellow flower is in fact a rose, just a yellow rose. Symbolism and meanings regarding roses: Yellow Rose Yellow roses symbolize friendship, happiness and warmth. Yellow roses can also convey a desire to start anew or give a relationship a second chance after a quarrel or misunderstanding. Red Rose The most popular of all rose colors, red roses symbolize deep love, romance and passion. The red rose has long been a symbol of beauty and perfection and can also symbolize courage. A dark red or burgundy rose depicts a beauty that is uncontrived and unadorned. If they did use that card, it would represent Leyton better, considering it would be starting fresh; or 2nd chance. That I'll even admit would be a very cool tie in. Of course, and don't kill me, it could also be played up in Brucas fashion bc of her Rose selection. On the other hand though, Brooke did choose her own flower. 2. If you can show me the "smile" I'll be more of a believer of this. IMO he didn't really waver in his facial expressions. I think this one might be a stretch. 3. Does he really say that he always knew? I must have missed it. That would be very LP, and although I don't like the book references bc I know that books are heavily edited, this would for sure go up there with best arguments. 4. I think the card is left on the hotel room bed? Not for sure, but it was the significance that it was left behind. However, I can't believe I'm actually writing this but, it could also be interpreted that the card was sorta his guide, or his push to finding his heart, and once he got it, hence with Peyton, it could be left in the ill fated hotel room, as a token that they moved beyond it, closed that chapter and started a new, fresh one. 5. Bent or not...IMO not hidden meaning. 6. I will say that he looked very happy in the Leyton dream, the happiest even. Lucas to me though is very dependent on having a woman need him, or atleast be with him, so I think just about any woman next to his side would have made him happier at this point. He's been utterly miserable for the past couple episodes, outside of his time with Brooke and Angie. I just wish Lucas would be more independent, that's something that drives me nuts about Leyton, I think that type of need can be debilitating to a relationship in the long run. 7. The guy proposed on a whim, tired and ready to run, to elope in Vegas. Now I'm not taking away from the fact that he asked her, but I just think that it shouldn't be like that. Not after all that time has past and all the drama of S5. He hasn't stopped running, he's just enlisted another able body in Peyton to this diabolical plan. I'm glad they didn't get married in Vegas. If Lucas and Peyton really are meant to be together...forever...then they will last through a drama filled season...and then it will be clear as day. Now though, I beg to differ on the clarity of it all. Lastly, I don't hate Leyton, in fact, if the writers would venture away from the meant to be, TLA, comet, state championship clarity moment, and give us some good quality relationship building material, I may even like them. I just don't feel it as it's been portrayed. I think they have an amazing connection, and a great love for each other, I just think that Brucas complete each other better for a life long partnership or marriage, kinda like Naley. Leyton's inability to function apart makes me think they will eventually either suffocate each other or one will demand too much of the other. Maybe if the writers are smart, and they build on the idea of a fresh new start, the yellow rose, that this new mature Leyton will win over the fans. Because when it all comes down to it, its the ending that counts. I'd love to see my Brucas, in the relationship that I feel they deserve and can have, I feel their connection everytime they are on screen together and I love the idea of Brucas having the same heart and making each other stronger better people together, but if its not in the cards for them (wink, wink) I'm gonna be ok with that, bc they will still have that bond as friends, and I will accept that 2md best IMO if Leyton prevails, and establishes a mature love story, something more than just "it was always there" sorry to me thats not compelling enough. I want the romance, not the cheese! I want to forget Peyton's "Lucas stealing" face and move on from it. Whatever the writers have in store it just better be GOOD! I actually think they did a great job with the first episode. It opened up the doors for alot of possibilities regarding Lucas's love life, alot of it is up for personal interpretation but thats what makes it interesting. Like dermer4ever said we have to let the season play out. Nobody needs to jump ship just yet!lol Everyone keep the faith!

Broody_4_Cheery cherise i liked your response but i feel like i should give mine a little bit too. 1.) maybe yellow, still could be a rose though, besides does it matter considering its a known about the undeniable connection between the queen of hearts and roses, its a hint nether the less. 2.) lucas does smile at peyton, cherise it is there, and its hard to miss, but its just a smile, if the whole QoH thing could be nothing then a smile could be nothing either way, if you watch he actually begins to smile after lindsey says pick one, and he does also seem real sure after brooke says pick one, and his words were 'thats the one' and im not a hundred percent positive but im pretty sure that brooke is the only person lucas has ever referred to as 'the one'. 3.) Lucas always knew, yes a compelling argument, because he knew it was peyton for the two seasons he was all about brooke, he knew it was peyton when he was telling brooke the difference is he loves her, he knew it was peyton when he was telling rachel that brooke is the one and he knows it 'he FEELS it'. the whole quote from the book is from a book, and leytoners can choose to rally around it, just like brucasers can choose to rally around the queen of hearts theory, but in the end the book is just a book that went through a lot of editing and the QoH theory is just a theory. the fact is lucas has poured his heart to many a girl, devoted himself to just them, so how much can we put on what he says or has said when the writers can flip it whenever they want. 4/5.) there are so many ways to interpret the card thing. imo this is one way i did andi actually based a fanfic on it, the whole card falling as they leave the airport and it being bent possibly symbolising that lucas left behind his heart and its 'bent' meaning damaged, considering brooke is left behind in tree hill (without her two est friends i might add) and is attacked. 6.) actually i agree that lucas looked really happy in that scene when he ran to peyton, i in fact i was really happy about that because imo its the first time i have seen such genuine emotion from lucas regarding peyton, he actually really did look really happy to see her, his face lit up. but well i wouldnt claim it was the happiest i have ever seen lucas. 7.) yes he looked inside his heart and he chose peyton, but brooke was still inside his heart, and once before nathan asked himself to look inside his heart and he found brooke there, so if it was 'always' peyton and he chose brooke then well whats to say its not brooke now though he chose peyton. we all interpret everything different but im saying this to all fans, leytoners and brucasers alike, keep the faith, dont give up on what you believe in, be true to yourself and what you just feel. no matter what you read or hear everyone has the right to keep their faith and to believe in the possibilty even when life has given you evry reason not to be belive, and the thing is mark is giving us all reaosns to believe what we believe in, their a dozens of possibilities, all just as valid as teh rest, all circumstancial and based mainly on how we interpret things from the present and the past. but we ALL should keep the faith no matter where it lies.

brattynemz Forgive me but I see no point in this. It's TV, and it's subject to many interpretations. Heck, we may be right, we may be wrong. Worse, we may be both wrong. My faith wouldn't falter, our faith wouldn't falter. If this is what we have to do to feed our hungry souls (for more BL lovin!), we would do anything. I don't read a LP article and expect to see Lucas proposing to Brooke. I am sorry if I offended anyone, I just can't see the point why you have to post your beliefs here, is it to wrong us? I'm sure it's not to convince us. I'm confused. :-|

abs07 Broody you can't seriously rank the QOH theory with Luke's book. The QOH theory is a theory derived from reaching interpretations (yellow flower vs red roses???; luke always knowing being he wanted brooke for a season and a half vs always wanting peyton). It wasn't just wanting peyton for a few seasons: the words in his book weren't concocted by us as you know. It's near impossible to misinterpret them. He never took them back either. "The realization that peyton and I were always ([b]always[/b] meant for each other (that covers all the seasons - including the ones where he claimed to love/want to be with brooke) and every instinct to the contrary (dating brooke/lindsey/anna) was a denial of the following truth: I am, and would always be, in love with Peyton Sawyer." "I need you to stop being in love with peyton" - Lindsey. Again, Luke didn't deny it then either. The words are clear and irrefutable. I dunno what else to say. It's fine that you believe brooke & luke are meant to be and even that you think she may be the QOH, but for you to rank clear words @ the same level with QOH speculation is surprising. The fact that you feel he's "flipped over" to the next girl is also surprising. You don't see the difference. You don't see the finality in luke's words/actions when it comes to peyton. He proposed to her first. and yes, he proposed to lindsey after - but s5 was about luke's journey; luke's growth; he kissed peyton the same night he proposed. did he kiss brooke the same night he proposed to peyton? He wrote 2 books about her - books filled with words that cannot be forgotten or mortalized. as for the bent card thing, the card was bent throughout the episode. and it's fine about interpreting the falling thing as falling away. you're not the only one to see it that way. as i'm sure you know, me and many others saw it as a demonstration that luke made the right choice. It didn't really fall away or float away, it fell beside them. Even if the card wasn't bent throughout the episode, a crisp flat card would not have fallen so nicely - so for effect, it would have had to be bent - if it was torn, i'd see a stronger argument. but you're right about one thing, ship who you love. I just don't like it when ppl don't substantiate their arguments.

abs07 RealLuvAlways, forgive me for butting in, but: since you found the meaning of brooke's flowers, I found the meaning of the flowers luke got for peyton: Purity, modesty, virginity, majesty, it's heavenly to be with you. The white lily is linked to Juno, the [b]queen[/b] of the gods in Roman mythology. oh and believe me, the facial expression (smile) is not a stretch. most brucas fans even saw it. I didn't see luke's proposal as a whim. He and Peyton had waited so long and really never left that hotel room in L.A. (at least they never left it in their hearts). they are now ready to get married and they just got over themselves and wanted to be together. no excuses. I'm also glad the vegas wedding thing didn't pan out. let's just hope the real wedding does. I do see where you're coming from about wanting to see more of leyton's actual relationship. but all the comet/destiny talk/book writing was mostly last season - because leyton was apart. I believe that while luke was going through his odyssey, fate/God was screaming out that Leyton's separation was simply a bump in the road. that they were indeed still meant for one another. when they [b]are[/b] together, they're [b]together[/b]. Not sure if that helps you understand better...

Broody_4_Cheery maybe i am reaching with the whole QoH theory comparing it to what lucas wrote in a book, but the fact is it was just a book, a book that we can never really know what it was really all about, a book that other than ONE quote we've heard doesnt give us anything that promotes leyton. yes in the book he says everything was a denial, but has lucas ever said those words out of the book, has lucas said his feelings were a denial other than in that book, a book which he admits lindsey wanted to change alot, and lindsey admits she was rooting for peyton, im not saying the leyton stand point of the book isnt right but to depend everything on the words of a book when the possibilty is there that you cant really believe everything you hear, i mean i saw with my own eyes as lucas fell in love with brooke, i heard the words said over and over again as their story was created within the actual framework on the show, and i choose not to believe that was all a denial especially when i dont see anything to really prove it. so it comes to the point when i have to believe what was in the show or what i hear in the show about the book. and to base all lucas' current and future feelings on a book written in the past, well lots of people start of a relationship with the promise of always, when people are in love with each other they see it as an always thing, but it doesnt always mean it will be always. so i guess i dont see lucas' book as 'clear' words. and in the five coming to six seasons of oth lucas' heart and words are flipped alot, i mean when he was with brooke he said some pretty final words about his feelings, and then the show later flipped them, and flip it repeatedly to whatever suits the storyline, they can flip it again. i mean lets just say hypothetically that brucas do get back together, lets just say lucas makes some comment saying he never really loved peyton or something to undermine how serious his feelings for her were, would you as a leytoner just accept that and ignore everything to the contrary of what you have actually seen? i would hope not.

abs07 [b]has lucas ever said those words out of the book, has lucas said his feelings were a denial other than in that book, [/b] Looks like you found your Queen. How'd you know which one to choose? "I guess I [b]always[/b] knew." Always. Always means always. As in from the beginning until now and everything in between. I'm not saying he didn't love brooke. I'm not saying he didn't love lindsey. I'm saying his love for peyton in between never left, never wavered. It was deeper, stronger, and his girlfriends all knew it - hence the insecurities. As for the "flip" theory, I still can't view it as you do cause whenever he was with peyton, his words had a lot more finality. He never really had a finality with brooke. Other than grafiti in her locker in highschool that said Lucas and Brooke 4ever, lol. Not exactly mature. The love letter luke wrote to brooke that ended with "you're mine forever" is a clear heart fart as he used the exact words in a love letter he wrote to peyton from the beginning. So I don't remember any true finality with brucas that stood - at least not compared to the gravity that leyton had with one another. If luke had true finality with brooke in his words/actions - to the same degree he had with peyton, then i'd be concerned that mark has luke constantly "flipping his heart". but the levels are different, you see that don't you? Despite your preference.

Broody_4_Cheery see but thats the thing, isnt that the whole point of this article, the idea that the queen of hearts is brooke not peyton meaning that quote would be about brooke and not peyton. and no i still dont see it, the whole flipping his heart thing i stand by, even with peyton, i dont like it but thats what i see. anyways, i think we have both stated our sides and i really hate repeating myself so i am leaving it with what ive already said and am agreeing to disagree.

brattynemz So this is an argument? I never knew, I thought this was supposed to be an article. On BL fans keeping the faith. Let me join the fiesta. The fact that leyton always find their way back... Everytime they're separated by circumstances, they always seem to find their way back - and they can never help it. OMG I so disagree. It is not destiny. Come on. Ok, maybe in s1. Lucas - ball and earphones. Peyton - looking for CD. It could've been anyone else on that road, behind that wheel but they were the ones in there. If you can call that destiny, I guess I'll be fine with that. But in the later seasons, hmm, I'm gonna attribute the 4th season to Brooke and the 6th to Peyton. I'll start with Lucas and Peyton getting back [edit: in s6], that's just Peyton. Peyton chased Lucas in s5, I'm glad it paid off but that's not destiny. And yes, I'm going to stop here because I have a bad temper and I'm still confused with this whole argument so yeah, stopping now.

kuhriissten okay just one thing cause i gotta go. Lucas didn't "choose" to love Brooke in season 3, it just happened, he didn't expect it to. that's the way love is, it just HAPPENS. what's with the delusional thinking that he "choose" her? Lucas could of had Brooke or Peyton but he got to know Brooke more and he fell for her...it wasn't a matter of choosing between them.

RealLuvAlwaysBL For the record, I see it as a meeting of minds, a civil back an forth aimed to see how we all feel. This place is neutral, OTH ground. I personally like to see what everyone, not just my beloved Brucasers, sees and feels about the topic, which really is 6.01...I just saw room for interpretation, which as a BLer I see as ample opportunity to keep the faith. But bc its common ground I say this place is perfect. Abs...I'm sad...I went out of my way to really Leytonize my response and I couldn't even get a bone for that!lol No props for that vision of leaving the card. Darn you guys are hard!haha btw, I was meaning to get the info on Peyton's flowers and include it, just hadnt gotten around to it, so thanks. It just wasn't needed for that particular point, so don't think I didn't include it to disbar its significance to the overall idea, just the comparison of the playing card. Also, as for finality, Lucas's clarity is anything but. Like I said when we get to the end of the series we can talk about clarity and finality and I'm sure we'll both agree, but as for now, Lucas had a conflicted heart as recent as this last epi,as we know OTH will be filled with many obstacles. When Leyton work past those obstacles together, thats when they are clearly meant to be together, and should get married. Its great to have a connection like that with someone, but as Ive said before, I find it dangerous. Leyton haven't had years to perfect the balance, like say Naley, and they didn't have much to overcome together in S4 regarding them as a couple, so this is their chance. For me its live or die, ya know. They will always have each others heart, no doubt, but it takes more than that to sustain a great relationship. Leyton for whatever reason didn't make it through the college years, call it what you want. This is Leyton's chance for revival. For me though, with 20+ episodes ahead, I'd like to dig into some hidden theory behind it all. And...BLers we think that QOH theory fits Brucas well, it might never be revisited, it might be proved all Leyton, but B4C's point is that we can speculate that Lucas picked the QOH in the dream, and that whether it is significant to the end game scenario, the QoH reference ties to Brooke more so than Peyton, therefore opening the door for his decision in real life of Peyton to be questioned further, throughout the season...Does that make any sense? For me though its just about the journey of Leyton together. One of the main questions not answered though, was to compare Brooke and Peyton in terms of QofH . Not the relationship, just the reference. Thanks everyone for commenting.

brattynemz Cherise yeah thanks for un-confusing me. :))

abs07 bratty: peyton fighting for luke in 507/508 does not count as chasing him in season 5. It was one scene in 507 and one scene in 508. Let me tell you what I mean by finding their way back/not being able to help it: Season 1 - The near hit and run with Leyton in the pilot is obvious, yes. It can also be as simple as when Luke ran into Peyton and her dad at the cafe - and brooke walks by and she knows there's something about the two of them. Season 2 - Brooke was about to take the next step with Luke but then she found leyton pictures/letters/cards that luke kept. Leyton had an innocent hug when luke was comforting peyton [about jake?] and ofcourse brooke saw it and her insecurities about leyton resurfaced. At the end of s2, luke promised that he would help peyton find ellie and low and behold... Season 3: The very day of brucas' reunion, Luke goes and does that very thing. He chooses to help peyton instead of the girlfriend he's been pursuing for like a dozen episodes. 314, Rachel got peyton drunk and peyton ended up blurting out lyrics that reminded her of luke (the stars are crying for what we could have had); moreover, leyton end up in the same bed thanks to rachel's schemes, and brooke finds them together. Episode 3.16 speaks for itself: the shooting, them in the library, the kiss, luke saving her. nuff said. In 3.21, Peyton says "I love you Lucas" in her sleep, and Jake heard it loud and clear. He forced her to go back and figure out if Luke was still in her heart - then in a particular "I love you" play scene, Peyton realizes where her heart lies. Season 4: The day brooke comes to see luke cause she misses him, Peyton happens to come out of the bathroom in her pjs. 410, Luke comes back from his "coma"/near heaven escapade for who else...Peyton. Luke and Peyton both foreshadow season 5 in their own way - "No matter what happens, you will always be in my heart/I will always love you." "It doesn't matter if I stay or if I go, cause I'm gonna love you forever Lucas Scott." Season 5: Despite Leyton not being a couple, Luke published two books - about Peyton. The first time around was on purpose. The second time, Luke did it by accident, lol. Lindsey figured it out just as they were about to become man and wife (just in the nick of time don't you think?). Season 6: Luke's dream leads him to a new yet familiar certainty of who he's meant to be with.

abs07 kuhriisten, you misunderstood me. I never doubted that luke loved her, but it was by choice that he wanted to be in that relationship despite his heart which was never [b]fully[/b] with brooke ("Peyton and I were always meant for eachother and every instinct to the contrary was a denial of a simple truth"; "I always knew"). that's what I meant. I never said luke chose between brooke and peyton in s3. I said he chose in s1(1.13) and chose in s6(601). and btw, luke couldn't have "had" brooke or peyton in s3. If luke wanted peyton earlier than 3.21, peyton would not have been available (she didn't know what she wanted yet).

abs07 realluvalways, I [b]do[/b] appreciate your open mind on the subject, don't worry. Bone thrown, lol. You seem like a reasonable enough brucas fan :)

RealLuvAlwaysBL Abs I'm a commenter my nature, so forgive me...but heres my perspective on Leyton finding their way back or to each other. S1- If OTH was a movie like Marc has mentioned his original intention was, I would be all about the Leyton train, and their undeniable meeting, the way that Lucas watched from afar for so many years and then one chance meeting almost catapults him into a different world a Peyton's world...in that world he brings his friend Hales who also has her own chance meeting with Nathan...and well we know how that goes. I really liked Leyton in S1, aside from the cheating, which I attribute to immaturity on Lucas's part, but I get it (Its hard to turn down the woman of your dreams having waited so patiently for so long) Anyways to wrap this up...I like Leyton S1, I wish they would have ended the triangle then and there. But they didn't... S2-Neither are together romantically...I really enjoy S2 dynamics bc both Leyton and Brucas friendships are great in their own way. Brucas grew more in S2, and Leyton sorta grew apart. IMO S2 was a turning point. His coming to terms with his feelings for Brooke, a girl he would have never dreamed of falling for so hard. My favorite Brucas moment is not the rain scene or the letters, it was when he moved her into his room. It was a selfless act...him knowing in his heart that he could not loose her just yet. The box he finds with the Peyton artifacts are up for debate as for the true meaning, but he's a sentimental guy, and I've kept things from past relationships as simple reminders of great times, its not me holding on to them, just that memory. I felt like Brooke was insecure, yes, and she had every right to be, after Lucas's confession in the finale I saw that summer as her time to reflect on it, hence the letters. So in short, I really don't see anything in s2 Leytonwise, in fact, it was the very reason I began my love for Brucas. S3-Now, I disagree with the idea that Lucas always leaving Brooke, his girlfriend, for Peyton, is significant. I respect your point, but I never got the impression that Lucas wanted it to go beyond friendship, and Peyton was his good friend, and his girlfriends BEST friend. Peyton gave them her blessing, and in part encouraged them to get together, the hiding of the heart thing just doesn't fly for me, and through out the seasons, Brooke enlisted Lucas for that help from the beginning, the college party, when they go to find her dad, Ellie, and in the school shooting...Brooke is then betrayed in the end by Peyton who essentially takes back her blessing because she's loved Lucas all along, and what couldn't admit it. I know Peyton feels terrible about it, but don't you think she could have gone about it with a bit more class? Maybe let the feelings settle for a minute? Brucas were in love and happy, it wasn't any message from the stars in S3, it was Peyton, being IMO selfish, and keeping the truth from Lucas, while breaking Brookes, fragile heart that brought them together. S4- Peyton being there, everywhere it seemed to me during the first episode on with Lucas was selfish again. IMO Peyton made everything way more complicated. And I don't believe in my heart that she was hanging around Lucas for HIS benefit, or BROOKEs, No, I think it was for hers. At this point, L though he was being the friend that he promised her he wanted to be, and he was confused why Brooke the woman that he loves didn't love him back. Well thats the thing about TV and drama, the audience knows too much, and the characters too little! I just want to scream sometimes at the TV...things would be much smoother if there wasn't all these little secrets and misconceptions (Peytons confession, the mall B-day scene etc.) So again, I don't see it as fated them be in each others arms, i see it as Peyton plotting (mostly because at this point I wanted to rip her skinny little arms off for taking her blessing away!lol) It isn't again until the whitey speech that I will say that Brucas, have come to terms with their situation. At this point, Peyton still has not confessed to Lucas her true feelings. The state championship moment is beautiful, and would be a million times better if Lucas hadn't have said Brooke at first. Defiant he may have been, in denial, eh perhaps, but IMO, the writers were foolish with that. They do find their way back to each other, with the help of Brooke's push. Then poof they are together? I just didn't buy it, it didn't seem genuine...even Honeygrove to me was so so. Then the accident, oh boy...Yes Lucas comes back to Peyton to tell her he loves her, but think of it this way, Keith showed him a world that he was not apart of, and in that world, everyone was devestated including a Brooke that never moved on, and Peyton could not move on with her life. So a part of me believes that while he did come back to be with Peyton, he came back also for the bigger picture too, and that Keith showed him he was stronger, and bc of him the people in his life benefited, and also in a way to avenge Keiths death. That also was a huge aspect of the time with Keith. The foreshadow into S5 I like. The no matter what happens, yada yada. But, I'll have to play devil's advocate here, and say that Brooke said very similarly...I love you Lucas Scott, and I probably always will. Lucas to Peyton, I'm gonna love you forever. Yes both are very moving, I think this is mostly where we differ in opinion. I see Leyton as a great love that, while always there, is more ideal than reality. They continue to show this love, the idea of love between them, always saying it, and Lucas eventually writing it, and then they contradict it by their actions. Its just not consistent. We see this especially during the 3 -4 year gap between seasons. S5-Im just going to have to agree to disagree with you on the books thing. But either way, Lindsey, yes in the nick of time, bailed on Lucas. Lucas wants stability and love, like Ive said he comes of to me very needy, as does Peyton. Maybe now in S6 they can fulfill each others void and put it to rest already. This sorta jumped around a bit, I tried to give you an idea of how I, and I think alot of BLers, see the seasons in retrospect to a LPer. And again its all perspective. I think Mark is a big butt for doing this. IMO he should have stuck to original plan through in and through out. The intensity of both camps is so strong and I truly believe that both sides have compelling reasons for their ship. Why Mark did not realize this I dunno, you can't keep ripping apart best friends. I still obviously have alot, maybe too much faith in Brucas, and maybe I'm wrong but I think that being the pretty rationale people we are, even on different sides of the spectrum, you can partly see where I'm coming from, well atleast I hope I was able to explain a bit of that in this response. I guess alot of me viewed Leyton love as dysfunctional in the long run, and i wanted to believe that by Lucas being injected into Peyton's world it opened the door for him into Brookes also. Because I see them, especially in S5 more mature and on the same page in terms of what they want now, family etc, Brucas might not have that undertone of fated love(even though I think thats sorta where the QofH theory comes into play, bc its more than just this one dream sequence) that Leyton does, but they seem to have an unwritten and unspoken understanding of each other; they aren't alike in mind, but in heart, where Leyton are opposite IMO...for Brucas it could mean only friends maybe, but I think that foundation is key to marriage and successful relationships. Its a feeling I haven't yet gotten with Leyton. And why I still ship Brucas firmly, and find 6.01 open for interpretation.

abs07 I won't debate about s1/2 cause what you wrote is your opinion, and I respect it. The only thing I'll say is that if Leyton stayed together after what they did to brooke, even [b]I[/b] would have liked them less. They separated because by 1.15, their relationship was borne from cheating. There are lyrics that play in the scene where peyton ends with with luke in 1.15: "On the tip of my tongue, I promise forever, but the words go unsung, as I sink into denial, we plot our future with a map into the stars..." Mark said that the music in the show is very significant in many scenes, and if you listen/read these lyrics carefully, they say that though leyton has to separate given the circumstances (cause despite their mistakes they [b]are[/b] good people), they believe deep down that they'll find their way back - but for awhile, they ended up sinking into denial till it became impossible to do so...and for the record, I believe that their journeys between s1-4 and between s5-6 were very necessary. They both experienced love elsewhere, and grew as individuals to become the ppl they are now. They know their grown love surpassed all the others from the past, including their own, and their maturity compliments one another. They get to get to know each other all over again (despite all the stuff they know from before). In s3, we both know that Brucas had problems ("I am holding on for dear life but I need you to need me back"; "why won't you ever just let me all the way in???") way before peyton confessed. Her confession definitely didn't help the situation, but peyton was not responsible for ruining brucas. In regards to peyton's "class" in confessing, she was silent for so long - she repressed her feelings for the sake of her friend (from 1.15-3.21). Was it great to wait so long? No. Peyton wanted to believe she could move on from Lucas - she tried...for 2 seasons. but with a little clarity in s3e21, she thought back on the repercussions of s1 and didn't want to lie to her friend; and I genuinely believe she just didn't want to make the same mistake again (withholding the truth from brooke). She knew that by telling brooke it would complicate things. and she had no intention of breaking brucas up. She could gain nothing from telling brooke, don't u see? So I definitely do not see her confession as selfish. she lost her best friend (4.15 - this has been one of the worst years of my life. and I needed my best friend; but you, [b]cut[/b] me out because I was honest with you) and she knew she would be risking that with confessing. But is there truly a good time to tell your best friend that the boy she loves is the boy you love too? Season 4 - Ppl need to understand that Peyton came to the hospital not just for luke, but for her friends. so they were bound to run into each other. The only real time peyton went to luke's that day was to make a mix with him. The other times luke was always coming over (when peyton found out about derek; when brooke dumped luke). As the episodes rolled by, did you not notice that leyton were always at peyton's? that luke was always paying peyton visits? As for peyton hanging around solely for her own benefit is a little absolute. We can't pretend to know peyton's mind inside out, but what I'll compromise on is that sure, peyton wanted to see luke - yes her love drove her to see him. but her love for him was also selfless. and she refrained from telling him her true feelings to let brucas sort things out on their own - confusing luke by confessing would have further complicated things. When brucas broke up, it was not about peyton (you can believe what you want, but I saw the look in brooke's eyes and there was no lie within them). As for luke's actions contradicting his true feelings, maybe this article I wrote about luke's persona can explain his foolish ways cause it's not a short thing to talk about: http://www.fanpop.com/spots/one-tree-hill/links/2021695 Just remember that Leyton's relationship ended with circumstances. Not eachother. That's debatable ofcourse, cause yes, peyton said "someday", but when luke walked away, he called. and peyton came to see him in L.A., but then Lindsey (circumstance/misunderstanding) came into the mix. Brucas ended because of brucas (despite peyton) - see the difference? Leyton isn't dysfunction in my opinion; they fell in love young, and that young love travelled with them as they grew and plowed through circumstances. and that love grew and matured with them into s6 as they made it to the finish line stronger than ever as one. Anyhow, we'll agree to disagree on most of the points :)

RealLuvAlwaysBL 1. In regard to them breaking up in S1. I agree, they had to part ways, and what I was saying, was that I wished the triangle had ended there, not that Leyton should have continued to date. Breyton were supposed to be best friends and they are plagued by their loves for lucas, and his for them. Then they finally get their friendship back on track and Round 2 begins when Nathan told Lucas to admit his feelings and he went to Brooke, who was w Felix at the time. I loved it, and I love Brucas, but if for nothing but an obstacle in Leyton’s way NO…that was what I meant by that. 2. Brucas had problems yes, most couples do, even beloved Naley. Peyton IMO was the straw that broke the camels back. She kissed Lucas in the library and said she loved him…he told her that he loved her, but was in love with Brooke…Peyton confesses to Brooke, which in turn creates confusion between an angry Brooke and Lucas at Naley’s wedding. When Lucas slips up about the kiss that meant nothing that was the breaking point, that was when IMO as much as she loved Lucas she couldn’t bear the thought of Peyton in LOVE with her boyfriend, kissing him again behind her back, and now wanting to be honest w her? Peyton didn’t single handedly lead to the demise of Brucas, but yes she did arrange the pieces. On purpose, no, but in the end it all hurts the same. 3. In regards to peyton's "class" in confessing, she was silent for so long - she repressed her feelings for the sake of her friend, She was the one that basically told Brooke to have a 2nd chance with Lucas, that it was “great”! Why because she had experienced love with Jake, and was over Lucas. If she wasn’t and was repressing her feelings for Lucas all along it makes me want to rip her skinny arms off even more. Hands down, IMO she did Brooke dirty. It’s not ok that she had a moment of clarity, it was too late! Brucas were in love. If you really believe she just didn’t want to make the same mistake why had she chosen to omit the part about her confessing her love to Lucas and kissing him…bottom line her telling Brooke that she loved Lucas was like her handing Brooke a ticking time bomb. She knew that it would tear them apart, with the history that between those girls and Lucas, come on? If she didn’t want to repeat the same mistake then you know what she should have done. Bite her tongue and wait for Brucas to end, and then confess to both of them that you love Lucas. Sorry…heated bout that.lol She knew that by telling brooke it would complicate things. and she had no intention of breaking brucas up. She could gain nothing from telling brooke. But is there truly a good time to tell your best friend that the boy she loves is the boy you love too? 4. As I said there isn’t a good time to tell your best friend that the boy she loves is the boy you love too, and she shouldn’t have done it. The mistake that Peyton(and Lucas, don’t think I excuse him in this) made in S1 was cheating…not in loving Lucas. It is selfish to tell that to your best friend. It’s basically saying that her love for Lucas is more important that both Lucas’s love for Brooke and Brooke’s for Lucas, not to mention…Peyton’s love for Brooke! What exactly were her intentions? Did she want to have a three some? I mean come on? I respect your opinions, but I guess I have a lot less faith in the good of people, bc to me there was only one thing that she could think about and that was her loving Lucas, her wanting to be w Lucas, and for that Brucas would have to break up. What she did gain from telling Brooke was everything to her…LUCAS. She knew that as both of their “friend” Lucas would come to her, and it was only a matter of time until she could tell him her true feelings again. But still at that point, end of S3, early S4 she was IMO a fraud running around playing friend, and trying to help Lucas get Brooke back. She knew that what she had to do was be HONEST with Lucas, and step aside. But her love for Lucas wouldn’t allow her to do that. Season 4 – The hospital I will give you. Chance encounter, bad timing, whatever. But IMO Peyton complicated things enough by confessing to Brooke, and during this whole time Lucas thinks that Peyton is being this great friend? Of course he’s going to go to her for help w Brooke, he has NO idea what Peyton told her to make Brooke so angry. The way I see him coming over to see Peyton all those times in S4 is sorta like how he goes to see Brooke in S5, with Angie and such, only that time Peyton hadn’t just broken up with him. He’s trying to be there for his friends. If it means more for Peyton, it means more for Brooke. I bet you’d be furious if Brooke next episode has an epiphany that she’s in love with Lucas and confesses to Peyton, to be honest of course. Then is around Lucas as he is trying to comfort her through the burglary. (Now I’m not trying to say that would happen, or id support it, I’m just trying to put it into perspective) When brucas broke up, it was not about peyton (you can believe what you want, but I saw the look in brooke's eyes and there was no lie within them). 5. I like your article, I always do. I see you think things out, as I try to do as well. Brucas broke up for many reasons, and yes I believe that Peyton was a substantial part of it. Both directly and indirectly. But I’m not refuting their break up. Like you said about Leyton in S1 I feel about brucas in S4. I think that Brooke really needed to find herself at that point, without Lucas. It didn’t help the wounds though when Leyton was running around town together. And in Lucas’s defense he didn’t know any better, but Peyton did. If she was really going to let Brucas play out, she would have done the honorable thing (IMO) and distanced herself a little more from Lucas, or explain to him why Brookes reaction to the “kiss” was more. It would have helped her relationship with Brooke, and would have redeemed her slightly.lol 6. I see Leyton’s relationship ending because Lucas wanted too much too fast, and Peyton wanted it Someday, which I completely understand. An engagement is a huge deal, and they were 19. My feelings on this though are that, Luke walked away. He walked away from the woman he wanted to spend the rest of his life with? Just because she said Someday to marriage? It was written poorly, because in essence that is really what an engagement is, a promise of someday, but he walks away anyways. Then Peyton doesn’t go after it. Bad timing yes, both busy, yes…but she lets him walk away with out a fight. The book signing is another example of this. Yes the Lindsey factor confused it, but I mean really after all these two had been through together she should have at least come in as a friend, who cares that he was embracing Lindsey. I saw it as a huge slap in the face to Lucas. It seemed to me that it was then where he began to move on, bc truly before that day, Lucas and Lindsey were not an item. Peyton would have learned that if she would have just talked to him. This Peyton move is sorta similar to Brooke seeing Peyton w Lucas at the mall…and then years pass before she confronts the love again after being miserable for the whole time in LA. To me again, its just too late. She needs to bite her lip. She interferes with Lindsey and Lucas, intimidates her the way she did with Brooke, and again comes off as believing that her love for Lucas is more important. Anyhow, I’m sure in the end we'll just agree to disagree on most of the points :) haha. This place has now pretty much become dominated by our commentary back and forth.lol

abs07 that's what I'm trying to say...there isn't. It just came out. she told brooke. you would really have wanted peyton to add fuel to the fire and say oh by the by, I kissed luke! common! you don't think brooke was suspicious enough that peyton wanted to steal luke? She would have eventually told her, but the fact that brooke was angry enough about the confession didn't exactly leave room for peyton to wanna go any further. We'll have to just agree to disagree about peyton confessing...cause we could go back and forth forever. You see it as selfish, I saw it as a brave attempt to grow from her past mistakes. Don't you remember when leyton wanted to wait for the right time to tell brooke about their affair? but there just always seemed to be something? then before they knew it, she caught them? Peyton was already leaking out her true feelings in her sleep, when she was drunk...it was only a matter of time before brooke found out somehow before peyton waited till brucas broke up. You can't seriously believe peyton is what started the problems...brucas already had problems...you can at least acknowledge that right? You really think Peyton told brooke cause she figured it would break brucas up and leave luke all to herself? Don't you think the show would have revealed peyton's personality in that sense already? the girl didn't look to gain anything by telling brooke. she wanted to be truthful to her best friend. I doubt we'll see eye to eye on this, so let's move on... :) You saw her not telling lucas and being his friend (which she always was before her epiphany) as fraudal? She did nothing different. She did step aside. she let luke walk his journey. and was part of her hoping he'd end up with her? sure! she's in love with him. always has been. but she did nothing manipulative to ensure that (but again, we'll have to agree to disagree, cause even peyton's good deeds like helping luke get brooke back seem manipulative to you, so the girl can't win unless she completely cut luke out of her life; and luke wouldn't let that happen). I wouldn't be angry at brooke if she confessed. Honestly. I'd be angry at the situation. I think it would suck cause no one likes a triangle. but it's truth. truth sucks sometimes. and for the record, luke didn't see angie/brooke that many times - not compared to leyton in s4. Those two hung out practically every episode. but again, you're interpreting peyton's actions as manipulative. I do not see it that way. I don't think you're mostly mad at what she did, but about what her motives were when she did them (confessing/being there for luke). It's hard to debate on speculation so we'll leave it at that. I won't disagree that when Peyton kissed Luke in s1 & s5 it was selfish. no doubt about it. I truly believe that Leyton are meant to be together at least right now. as for endgame, I have no idea. but the strength; the magnitude of their love drives them to do stupid things. Leyton's love [b]is[/b] more important. that's my opinion - it doesn't condone what they did in between (cheating) but I do understand why they did it. It certainly wasn't because they were bored and horny. Being together is like breathing for those two. they could only hold their breath for so long before they need to breathe again. You can't compare what Peyton did in 507 to what she did in s3/4. Peyton loves brooke and she truly waited for brucas to be officially over (no schemes in between) before she ever went for luke. With lindsey, peyton tried to move on, but that "what if" drove her mad as the love of her life that she came back into town for, was slipping away. She caved and fought for him despite lindsey. It was selfish; but I couldn't help but admire her persistence. cause despite her immoral actions (kissing luke who was clearly still in love with her too by the by), the fact is, Leyton needed to be together. It's pure destiny way I see it. It's 5 seasons in the making. Peyton had reached a point in her journey where she knew her and Luke had a journey to walk together (figure out their relationship cause it just keeps coming back to them), but Luke (being the emotional retard that he is) was still in denial. and so after a hard fight in 507/8, she waited - waited for luke to grow up. and that he did. No, leyton's journey wasn't the smoothest or the most honorable in some cases, but they [b]are[/b] good people. Good ppl who make mistakes and are slowly but surely learning from them. And I know that many still won't understand peyton/lucas/leyton, and that's ok.

RealLuvAlwaysBL Okay, maybe it just came out…a slip in the moment, as she was very overwhelmed with her own emotions. But, then it’s not her attempting to be honest. I feel like its either one or the other. I see your point that between the yelling and slapping adding fuel to the fire, i.e. the kiss, may not have been appropriate. The difference IMO from S1 to S3 is not that Peyton learned from her mistakes. Because like I said her mistake wasn’t in loving him, it was in having an affair. In S1 they had to tell her, and didn’t…in S3 though, Peyton is the culprit, maybe something would have eventually happened, but I felt that Lucas made it clear to her that he was not “in love with her” If anyone grew it was Lucas, denial like I said perhaps, but regardless, the circumstances were different. My thing is that after reassuring Brooke 2 times, season 2 mall…s3 by the swing after Peyton was shot, that Brooke could ease her fears from Peyton. She was nervous about the two of them together and she had every right to be, but after that last talk I felt like Brooke had really begun to put it past her. She flat out told her, “I’m not going to hurt you like that again”. Peyton confessing only a couple weeks later was like a knife in the heart. You see what I’m saying? In S3 Lucas made it clear to P who he wanted to be with. IMO S3 is all on Peyton, she’s not the reason, but shes the catalyst, she brought back that debilitating fear and its what lined up all the cards for their eventual breakup. Knowing Peyton loved Lucas, especially having heard about the kiss, ignited her fears again. I felt like she was honest, and knew that they would never work with her not trusting them together, and that’s what really caused it. And unfortunately, Lucas would never really know or understand that. They may have broken up eventually otherwise, but I firmly believe Peyton being her best friend should have been able to contain herself until then. The whole situation is obviously a sore spot, I truly see it as betrayal. Yes I could go on and on…maybe I’ll have to write something on their friendship later.lol. I only see her friendship as fruadal with him from the time frame of after she confesses to Brooke to her telling him she loves him. Granted she did tell him before, but she was delirious from loosing blood. I guess it’s not her friendship that’s fraud; it’s her existence around him. BC she wants more than friends, and at that point he was only trying to be a good friend. So in my head they are sort of brought together under false pretenses. So I’ll say false pretenses instead of fraud, makes more sense. The fact that they need each other like they need air…eh I see it more as they need someone to love like they need air. Maybe, I’m wrong, but during Jeyton Peyton seemed like she was breathing pretty darn well, and as so many times with Brucas, and Lindcus. When Jake leaves her and then in S5 Lindsey leaving Lucas you see this crazy downward spiral that they both take and its scary to me to depend on other people so much. I guess we’d have needed to see Jeyton fully play out, in order to see this theory through. Maybe Lucas’s emotional retardity allows him to seek air in other places more easily…i.e. Brooke Lindsey. It just seems like that silly boy can’t breathe on his own PERIOD! lol My feelings about Peyton’s friendship with Brooke may well be the reason I fault Leyton so much. And I can’t help that as much as I try…I’ve been in both shoes, and well I relate far more to Brooke. That’s not to say though that Leyton are meant to be, and we’ll just have to see how it goes this season.

abs07 If anyone grew, it was luke? No. Sorry. Completely disagree. He hadn't substantially grown in my opinion until season 6. Don't you remember the words he wrote in his book? Why then would he say "That moment was about simple clarity: Peyton and I were [b]always[/b] meant for eachother and every instinct to the contrary was a denial of a simple truth (inadvertently refuting "I wanna be with you, not Peyton")". Again, I'm just going by the facts; I'm not saying he didn't love/love being with brooke, i'm saying he never stopped loving peyton and never wanted to end things in s1 - therefore always knew he should be with her ("I guess I always knew") even if it was a repressed knowledge, he [b]was[/b] in emotional denial till s4, then in s5 till s6. He made that clear in his book [and in 601 when he made his final choice] and never took the words back. I know you don't agree with that, or may not understand it, but again, i'm going by a lot of facts. I know brooke had every right to be nervous, but if you go back to season 1, she was already nervous & insecure...[b]before[/b] the affair. She already knew there was something about leyton. She was also pissed at luke for going out with rachel after she told him to (I know he could have chosen to fight for her instead, but he already did that and she kept playing games...anyhow, i won't steer off topic, sorry). Peyton's confession hurt - peyton in my opinion just as much as brooke. Peyton didn't want to love luke, cause she knew her best friend whom she loved was with him. Why do you think peyton was balling so much? For pity? I know how it made peyton look when she confessed, and we can debate about it forever, but it doesn't change the fact that her heart was in the right place - that's how I see it; it's fine if you don't. You can interpret it as her being manipulative, but the poor girl had her dormant feelings for so long that when they came screaming out in 3.21, she couldn't help herself and needed to be honest with her best friend. She even tried staying away from luke after 3.14 ("you shouldn't be out here with me; it's hard on brooke; i'll be fine" - but he stayed anyway, comforted her and told her to let him in). Luke wasn't about to cut peyton out for brooke. It's funny though, that Luke was willing to cut brooke out at least temporarily for Peyton ("We don't have to see Brooke" 4.15). Leyton both knew it was always gonna be there, but they were never about to cut each other out; another destiny thing in my opinion. She never meant to hurt brooke, but you can interpret her confession the way you want cause it comes down to opinion, so we'll leave it at that. K, season 3. All peyton? I'm surprised you'd say that. I guess the fact that Luke chose to help peyton instead of brooke the very day he reunited with her was on peyton (who had no idea brucas were even reunited or in the same room for that matter); I guess the letter luke wrote to brooke that ended with "you're mine forever" which were the same words he wrote to peyton, were all on peyton?; or how about when luke pushed brooke away in 3.17? Or when he didn't call when he was away in 3.20, or the fact that he never did let Brooke all the way in, or let himself need her...those were all on peyton right? Common. Brucas had their problems that go way back to s1 (I'll say that peyton exacerbated them despite her best efforts to do the right thing; but she was [b]not[/b] the catalyst)...The fact that brooke played games with luke up till 309 were all on peyton right? Fact is, brooke had her insecurities since season 1 ("I felt inferior to you" "he brings up art and books and I've got nothing" - Brooke season 1). Brucas fans keep saying brooke didn't know leyton still had feelings for each other after 1.07, but I think she did wanted to believe they didn't. Her insecurities spoke for themselves. Whether she always showed them between s1 & s3 or not, they were always there and were [b]exacerbated[/b] mostly in 1.15 & in 3.21. By 401, brooke had enough - she was heartbroken not only by peyton (again who's heart was in the right place in my opinion; it was the circumstances that weren't), but mostly that luke was not the boy she wanted him to be for her - and all in all, her relationship with luke was no longer enough for her - I think she realized she deserved better; she wanted more. That's the way I see it. The fact that you didn't see a growth in peyton between s1 & 3 is surprising, but it's your opinion. Peyton was honest this time around; peyton didn't give in and kiss luke with a heated passion. That's growth. Not grown all the way up, but it's growth nonetheless. So again, we'll agree to disagree. I do not see her being around luke as fraudulent at all. She was containing herself. would you rather peyton confuse luke by telling him she loves him while he's trying to get brooke back? She was being selfless and waiting and you see that as fraudulent? You were mad enough that peyton ever told brooke anything, but you wanted her to go and confess to luke as well? I seriously disagree with your view on that. She wanted to let brucas figure out their relationship [b]alone[/b]. and yeah, whether peyton confessed to brooke or not, at least we can agree that brucas was doomed to break-up sooner or later. but the fact that brucas had their closure in 408 (which had nothing to do with peyton) doesn't bring leyton together in 409 under false pretenses. it wasn't like peyton was the rebound girl, or that she got him only because she told brooke the truth (you know it was bigger than that), she was [b]the[/b] girl - and Luke came to that realization in that moment. It was about simple clarity, remember? If leyton stayed together in s1 after the scandal with brooke, that would have brought them together in a tainted way. but the fact that they chose to try and be honorable after their mistakes makes them ppl who wanted their reunion [if there were to be one one day] to be right. brucas needed to run their course first, which in my opinion was necessary for both the growth of lucas and brooke (then leyton could be together without hurting anyone). The fact that you wanted the triangle to end in s1 is unrealistic. Leyton didn't have a fling as you know. They broke up for brooke. So their feelings never left as the seasons rolled by (s3e1, "it's always gonna be there isn't it? You and me.") If the the triangle ended then and there it would have been unrealistic - They fell in love in s1 (lyrics while leyton kissed in the hallway in 1.13: "I wanna know what it's like on the inside of love..."). Yes, I'm also not certain that leyton are gonna/meant to be endgame, but they definitely have had unfinished business since they broke up in s1 - which brought them back in s4. Then they had unfinished business when their break-up had zero closure yet again in s5 - hence s6. So now that they've grown from past experiences, I doubt they'll get in their own way again. I've said it before and i'm saying it again: I think s6 will either make or break leyton for good. They have a journey to walk together; no more running away. Guess we [b]will[/b] see if they have the potential for forever...

RealLuvAlwaysBL Abs, I think you've mis interpreted a couple of my feelings, and maybe I was confusing with my words. I thought that Luke grew because he understood how much he hurt Brooke with the affair and this time around when circumstances arose during the library scene he made a point to make it clear that while he loved her he was in love with Brooke. That was my view on that. He clearly had alot of learning left to do, which maybe he has conquered finally. Was I more clear on that? My point that it was all Peyton in S3 was simply that she was the one that kissed him and then disregarded his telling her that he was in love with Brooke. Nothing more. I agree that they had issues, but Peyton was no Angel in all of it, and as her best friend, I expected better, simple as that. In answer to your question, Yes, I would have rather she tell Lucas that she confessed her love to his girlfriend and her best friend. I think that would have made it pretty clear to him why a "kiss" that he claims didn't mean anything was more. Then he would have realized how hurtful it was for Brooke to see the two of them together. BC in Lucas's mind he must have believed that Brooke was over reacting, and a huge tole was placed on Brooke, and at that point she couldn't go to her BF, or her boyfriend. And on top of that to see him with her. Lucas's was so in the dark, I think the only relationship that would have suffered from Peyton being honest with Lucas at that point was Leyton, and that is why I don't think she said anything. That period of time in the first few episodes immeadiatly after she tells Brooke and Brooke breaks up with him are where I see the false pretenses. We disagree on her decision of not telling him so I assume we will do the same in this instance. I just wanted to clarify that time frame. The state championship, even her asking him to the banquet I see as neutral. I expected the triangle between Lucas Peyton and Brooke to be over after S1, so the "its always gonna be there isn't it? you and me...well if it was then I think they should have spared Brooke the misery. Now that I will say is all on Lucas, well rather the writers, however Peyton's insisting that she thought it was great was a huge blow too in the end to me. If LP were never over then Lucas shouldn't have pursued Brooke in S2-S3; bc I hated the idea of best friends being so torn between one guy. It wasn't fair to them, it's IMO a fatal flaw of the show. When they followed the Brucas train from S2 into S3 , and the Jeyton train too, it seemed so genuine, though, and I began to believe that Leyton were better off friends, and so the element of the continual triangle, while a huge aspect of the show bugs me. To me, the writers should not have used Brucas as another road block to Leyton, especially with such intensity. Another triangle, sure, I agree with you that they needed to regroup before taking the plunge again in S4. Does that make any sense? And I guess after reading all this, I've come to realize that, although we are both very rational, love, and connection and the feeling you get either out of Leyton or Brucas is really powerful. I mean we see the confession in two totally different lights. For me, and alot of BLers I'm sure the confession changed it all, its a betrayal on the part of OTH, and we would have liked for Brucas to have ended on different terms, atleast I did. That's why I feel so strongly about it. It's obviously not Peyton's fault, but the writers made it out to be that way. I would have been much happier if they would have left that part out bc it would have allowed Brooke to part ways with Lucas in order to find herself, with dignity instead of leaving the lingering idea that Peyton's confession destroyed it in part. That confession is what drew the triangle back in, and with out it Breyton would continue to be friends, Peyton and Lucas would have found each other on their own terms, and the triangle wouldn't have been revisited on such hasty terms. It was like they tried to play both ends. On one end Peyton's confession, the other Brooke stopped missing him. For me, it doesn't work that way...

abs07 I disagree that leyton's relationship would have suffered. I do not believe that peyton didn't tell luke cause she was afraid it would ruin her relationship with luke. He would never cut her out. He said it himself. I believe in certainty that his knowledge of peyton's feelings at that point in time would have confused him, not pushed him away. and in regards to the kiss meaning more to peyton w/out luke's knowledge, k, despite peyton, remember this: after Luke told brooke about the kiss by accident and saw her reaction, he knew that hanging out with Peyton hurt her. but he made the decision to do it anyway. He [b]knew[/b] his history with Peyton complicated things. That's all i'm saying. You can't place the blame of leyton's friendship hurting brooke in s4 solely on peyton. Luke had knowledge as well. Sufficient knowledge that such a kiss would anger/hurt brooke given leyton's history. Peyton's feelings for luke wouldn't have made much of a difference with luke's decision to hang out with peyton in my opinion - if anything I believe it would have hindered his pursuit for brooke cause his new knowledge would have been confusing. but again, that comes down to interpretation and opinion. I'm not asking you to agree, i'm asking you to try and see it from a different point of view/possibility; cause I see where [i]you're[/i] coming from... When did Peyton disregard Luke saying he was in love with Brooke??? What cause she asked if he was sure when he said he was gonna get Brooke back? It's not like she tried to sway him; she saw/knew that brucas' relationship was already going sour and though her feelings were there (which can make fans think she's being manipulative), she truly was trying to help her friend. Despite everything, she really does want to see luke happy (don't you think the writers would have shown peyton's manipulative/two faced personality by now? Kinda like they did with Dan? - I see why you perceive peyton's actions that way, but in truth, from what we've seen on the show, Peyton truly meant well. Despite the casualties in between). I see where you're coming from about brucas' breakup in 401, but again, Brooke dumping luke was not about peyton - she said it herself and I believed her. You don't have to, obviously. but outside that, it's not like leyton hooked up afterwards. Again, peyton really didn't follow luke around like a lap dog. Luke was usually going over to peyton's. and Peyton wasn't about to kick him out with a broom. They were best friends and luke needed her as a friend - and so she was that very person for him; nothing more. She waited. and again, yes, leyton's friendship hurt brooke, can't do anything about that (leyton's inseparable), cause i know that even if/when peyton drove luke away (eg.3.14), he wasn't gonna give up ("I would never cut you out of my life"). Peyton asking luke to the banquet was peyton's next step, cause she thought Brucas were done ("It's funny for the first time in a long time I feel like it's actually over" - Luke). but when brooke got to luke first, Peyton realized she still needed to wait/back off cause brucas still had unfinished business. so she did - she waited. She stayed away and let brucas figure things out. First person luke went to see [after he had closure with Brooke] was Peyton; again - another point of destiny in my opinion. Leyton didn't mean to cause brooke misery. The fact that they confessed that it would always be there didn't mean that they were emotionally ready to go there again. They first had roads to walk in between. LP wanted to believe they were over cause I think they were afraid to go to such a place (a gravity of love they couldn't yet fathom at such a young age) and thought it would be drama all over again (ie Brooke). So they repressed their feelings and refused to go to a place beyond friendship - that's why peyton gave brooke her blessings in s2. It wasn't like peyton was deliberately lying. She was in denial. Just like Luke. I see where you're coming from about your confusion about the continuing triangle even with Brucas/Jeyton being so happy in s3. But I don't think s2-3 was a fatal flaw, it was about Leyton finding love with different ppl (journeys they both needed to take before finding their way back), but how in the end they find their way back cause their love surpasses all others. Ofcourse you wouldn't like brucas to be a road block, you love them. and that's ok. But you know, they weren't a "road block", they were a road. It sux when the couple you ship is categorized in such a way (a road on the way to something bigger), but it's the way the show went, and though it didn't make sense to you, it does add up. When s5 went as far as luke kissing peyton then proposing to lindsey 5 minutes later, or when he said "I hate you", I still understood - it's about walking the roads, through the pain, then learning, and growing. there's always heartache in between. There are always casualties in the phenomenon of love. Despite my preference, I really think you need to realize that 408 was not linked to Peyton's confession. Peyton's confession was an entity, but not the cause. 408 was about brucas - and the way they ended didn't trump what they had. S3 was a beautiful memory; but with time (as s3 progressed), they grew up, but their love didn't grow with them. They'll always love each other on a certain level, but what leyton shared is underestimated and misunderstood by many. I'm still getting my head around it sometimes (just what they have; the level of love; the majesty of it). I know it's hard for you to exclude/demote the confession, but I urge you to try and look closer to brucas' relationship despite peyton's actions - she didn't catalyze a new triangle in 3.21, cause it never truly left - it was barely dormant. When peyton wasn't around, brucas fought about her among other things remember (3.10, 3.13, 3.17)? I think that 3.21 shocked you cause you may not have realized/wanted to see that the triangle never ended since s1 - so the turning point in 3.21 seemed hasty in your eyes, but I saw it as imminent. Brooke saying she stopped missing him was peaking before peyton's confession ("Has Luke called you? Didn't think so" - Rachel 3.20; "It's funny, I'm not as dependent on him as I thought" - Brooke 3.21). Remember what she said before "I stopped missing you"? it wasn't, "[b]now[/b], in this moment (401) I realized I stopped missing you." Those feelings were borne [i]before[/i] 3.21 (peyton's confession). She said "we go days without a meaningful conversation; and I used to miss you so much when that happened. but it never seemed like you missed me, so I guess because of that I stopped missing you." Brooke not only realized that she was standing in leyton's way, she realized that she deserved better than her relationship with Luke in general. I think what also really hurt was were that Brooke's worst fears (ever since she ever considered trying again with luke) would come true; I think part of brooke always knew that leyton was not over; so everytime she so much as saw them together, it hurt; 3.21 put her over the edge with realization (not a catalyst, but an entity in a chain reaction); she could no longer deny what she's probably felt from the beginning: her and luke are not enough; and luke and peyton are imminent. I can only imagine how hard it is to love someone, but to also dread the day of realization that it is not no longer enough. I hope you can bridge the gap between brucas' breakup and leyton's reunion someday :) - keep rewatching the old episodes (remembering that the triangle never truly ended between s1&4 despite leyton's repressed attitudes) and open your mind to different possibilities. Dunno what else to say :)

RealLuvAlwaysBL Abs, As stupid as this sounds, I guess I just wanted to see those words...I see it your way, directed at me, from you a rational Lper.lol I have always seen it the other way around. Brucas just moves me more simple as that. I hope you'll enjoy my newest article. It is essential the direct result of these convos we've been having. Like I explain in my article, I've blamed Peyton, and Leyton from the moment she confessed. We see it much differently, and I respect that. I never thought for one minute that Peyton was the sole reason for the demise of Brucas, but I never understood why they wrote it the way they did. To me if the end of Brucas was emerging naturally why mess with that? It just ruined Breyton for me bc as much as Peyton says she needed her BF in S4 when everything happened to her, I'd argue that Brooke needed her just as much, if not more bc when Peyton inevitably had Lucas, Brooke had Rachel? They can't compare. Yes, Brooke cut her out, but it was bc of that confession. Read my article if you don't mind. I feel like I'd be unecessarily repeating myself, and it's late.lol For the record though, I'm not sure if I appeared to think 4.08 was linked to the confession, maybe bc it was before the championship? well I don't, but Brooke did ask him out of spite towards Peyton at first, and which ever way it worked itself out. I just wished Breyton wouldn't have been torn up in the process of the confession, again. 4.08 might not have even been needed to put closure on Brucas w/o the confession. And either way Breyton would have had each other. Maybe then they could have omitted the brathan sex tape too? so pointless in many ways. ok goodnight.

abs07 Brooke and Rachel did grow close. and Peyton having luke was great, but it's not the same. Breyton missed each other equally. You can't prevent messy times; especially when it comes to love. We can't predict the effect on 408's closure vs the confession. but yeah, for me, the closure would have happened sooner or later, and the fact that brucas were fine to do it in 408 doesn't make me wanna dissect the possibility that it would have been done at a different time. Ofcourse you'd like as much brucas time as possible, so the possibility that they could/may have stretched out a doomed relationship lingers over your head. For the record, Brooke said she [b]didn't[/b] ask him out of spite at first, but then as the "none date" progressed, she wasn't so sure anymore. Yes, their friendship was tested yet again with the ever looming triangle, but they made it through, stronger than ever. That's what counts. Lingering in the past is pointless, cause breyton have both hurt each other tremendously and both forgave with no visit to the past again. You should do the same :)