I loved the Willow and Oz bit. He was drawn to her because she wasn't just another Cordelia. She had this strange, nerdy, innocent quality that the other girls at Sunnydale High were so far away from. "Who is that girl?" And I don't think it's without buildup, but more likely that it just isn't shown, kind of like a lot of the Xander/Cordy stuff, since Willow and Xander are not Buffy. Anyways, lol.

As some of you may know, my LEAST favorite storyline is Normal Again, the one where Buffy gets poisoned and then has that mental institution bit. That one offended me because the show sort of disregards it's own mythology for what I consider a cheap thrill.

I'm also not a big fan of the way Buffy and Angel hook-up. Yes, there's suspense and a will they/won't they aspect to it. But two episodes before she confesses her love for him, she's dating another guy who thinks is really dreamy without a thought to Angel, and one episode before her confession, he's not in it at all. I think it was too soon, and would have been more believable if they didn't jump the gun. They should have some quality time together first on an episode where she didn't confess that she loved him.

Another storyline that I'm not fond of is the Veruca storyline, yuck.

Anyways, that's all for now, I'm sure I'll think of more though.

I agree with you debs, while I love Oz and Willow together, the way Oz suddenly fell for her was unrealistic.

I hated the Normal Again storyline as well, it does seem cheap, and while I find the episode Him funny, the storyline was just cheap.

I agree with nosemuffin I'm not a big fan of Buffy and Angel's hook up, because she's always dating other guys. In the span of their whole relationship she went out with three other guys, so I can't see that as a loving relationship. There are other reasons too, but I don't want to crowd the forum, or get into a Spuffy vs Bangel fight.


And yeah, Veruca and Kennedy, they could go.

I think that's all I can think of right now. I'll probably be back,

i love normal again i think it's a amazing mind twister, it's like is your own life real? because things better before now, you have you just started to think about it, are you in a mental institution somewhere or is nothing real? i think it's brilliant, i don't think it disregards it's own mythology at all just because there's the possibility of it being a fantasy (which is what the show is all about really, a fantasy reality) doesn't mean that all of it doesn't make sense any more and like i said i think joss just added that because he couldn't resist messing with our heads

and back to willow and oz, there are plenty of nerdy girls in high schools and plenty of 'alternative girls' that are nothing like cordelia
and i wouldn't have minded if she had been say sat outside on the grass, laughing looking really pretty or doing something in chemistry that was really clever but doing nothing at a party when oz is quite a rocking guy or walking across the street, lets face it looking like the none vampire variety of a women of the night
infact she's not even recognizable from the other night,

although i don't like kennedy the character and i thought it was waaay too soon for willow to be with anyone after her soul mate, i don't really have any fault with most of it and I quite like it when willow draws power from her, it gives it a interesting element, what i hate is in when willow becomes warren and she comes back because kennedy thinks she had learnt how magic works and kisses her, i mean what?
that is telling us the complete opposite about everything we have already learnt about magic

sorry i have gone off again lol rant over

hm lets see i hated the fact that they got xander and willow together, not ebcause im a massive cordy fan, it just felt wrong!
i lvoe the way all the characters get together in the earlier seasons, just dont like how they break apart.
i dont like spike going to get a soul i loved him when he was all bad and couldnt do anything, i mean he gets better in angel but him in season 6/7 i dont like too much, its not the cahracter its they way it all happens.
ill come back later when ive thort of more there not in my head right now!

I didn't like Spike getting a soul, not only because of the way the writer's make him get it, they said he needed to do something drastic, so there was them admitting that the rape attempt was a plot device and OOC, but because he didn't need it.

He could have stayed soulless and stayed good for love. Even James says that he felt Spike could have stayed good and stopped killing for Buffy.

personally i rekon he should have gotten his chip out and then done something drastic, instead of the riley storyline, that would have been soooo much better

I remember when the show was still airing and they thought that Spike might return human.

who did, the writers???

No, other fans it was being speculated all over the internet. Spike was going to return human, Spike was going to get the chip out, the soul, and all other kinds of wild theories, lol.

Yeah, I also remember that. I was totally fooled and thought he was going to go get the chip out.

I didn't. The language he was using was ambiguous at best, and it didn't seem like he was going to get it out to me.

It wasn't any surprise to me when he ended up with the soul, though I remember I was one of those fans who thought he might come back human at first, lol.

i was seriously shocked at the soul but i didn't think he would come back all dechipped and evil i knew something was up

The soul shocked the crap out of me too. My mouth was hanging open, and not because he was topless!

lol nosemuffin

I thought he was going to get the chip out and then prove that he could stay good or something like that. I didn't think he was going to become evil again, because that storyline just wouldn't make sense after all that had happened. But I was also completely shocked at the soul.

JM said that he thought Spike could stay chipless and good for Buffy's love. He thought that would have made a more interesting storyline, but he also said it would have been interesting if Spike had ending up failing.

And lol nosemuffin. But that was getting to be a pretty regular thing by then, lol. Spike with no shirt. Not that I minded, but JM probably did after awhile.

yeah i remember him saying on a interview that the he was really cold in the demon trials scene and in that scene in that creepy episode of angel

Storylines I hated -

Xander and Willow was so quickly done, I know Willow had been in love with him for so long but with Xander it was like "Willow's in formal wear, I never realised just how hot she is!" They were both so into their respective partners at the time I didn't think it would happen.

Dawn, just the whole Dawn thing.

Spike 'falling in love' with Buffy and fighting for his soul, everybody knows why.

Buffy then sleeping with Spike in S6.

Didn't hate Willow and Tara but I hated their constant sexual references that were about as subtle as a sledgehammer to the face and not nearly as funny.

Kennedy and Willow.

I love how Oz and Willow get together though, for the same reasons Nosemuffin pointed out.

not so much storylines as couples then lol

Haha, well it's not Spuffy I hate, it's how it happens that I don't like.

That and Dawn are probably the biggest issues I have with the show...then on Angel it's Conner and Harmony.

i love harmony the character but she is just brought back because she's a loved character, I think have one of the none supers from buffy work for angel in season 5 would have been much better

I do love Harmony as well, but like Spike going soft when he's soulless it's an irritation because there are so many things Harmony does once vamped that I don't believe she'd do.

like what and what does that have to do with spike?

what are non supers?

the scoobies with out powers like xander, dawn, andrew

yer but none of them would have ever gone against buffy and started working for her ex!

Harmony's too human, the decisions she makes I just don't believe she would. Coming off human blood, helping Angel and Cordy, grieving over Fred...like Spike falling 'in love' with Buffy it's just things I don't believe would happen. I love the character but I don't like the way they humanise demons and go against everything that's being laid down before to suit themselves.

But it's not only Harmony and Spike. Darla and Drusilla are the same way. So are Elizabeth and James.

they humanized demons to make it a grey area, just because you don't have a soul doesn't mean your bad (good demons, PTB, neutral parties) just because you do have a soul doesn't mean you good prime example being warren an the many bad but hamn things the gang do (cheating, giles killing ben ect)
harmony acts the way she does because she still has that aspect from a human of wanting to be a 'sheep', she needs to follow someone weather it be cordy, the next queen bee (anya), spike, a creepy vampire cult that where colored robes, angel or wolf ram and hart, basically the people with the most power that will have her

Just like darla has alway been cold with a morbid sense of humor like we see on her death bed, just like she is as a vampire, just like Drusilla was driven crazy and took that on in to her vampire self and although spike changed over the decades when he first becomes William the bloody he doesn't know what to do he unsure and so turns to siring his mother, i think it's because his life revolved around his mother but instead it changed to revolving around the fanged four characters that he changes

i know what your thinking but it's angel(us) that's the exception here, although i think in angel particularly 3+ we see a bit more of a sarcastic angel that enjoys the fight more and gets more passionate than broody which makes me think of angelus

*not going to start with spike and soul lol

Drusilla and Darla aren't the same though, they never stop killing. They only ever from a truce with humans when it's in their best interest (AS2). James and Elizabeth are the same, they share affection but it doesn't stop their blood-lust.

Yeah vampires do take on the personality of the person they were but that person doesn't live there anymore "the demon gets your body but it doesn't get your soul, that's gone". Spike and Harmony make so many decisions that are more human in origin and that's what I can't take. With Spike we're told it's because he's an 'anomaly'...so what then of Harmony?

I like Angel so much because he is not a man, he's not human - he's a demon. This is emphasised many times, the only thing that stops Angel killing is because his soul makes him feel remorse for the things he's done. Of course people with souls are guilty of many horrendous things...that's what makes Angel interesting, he has a soul sure, but that hasn't killed off the demon inside, it's still there wanting to feed all the time. Angel isn't inside Angelus when he's around, Angel is ALWAYS Angelus really, that's who he is but his soul is the one thing that connects him to humanity and gives him choice.

the only time? why doesn't he try and kill buffy and willow instead of drawing them and killing fish?

and when darla first get turned by Drusilla she tries to resist the demon and is mad at dru for turning (aka she wanted to stay human)

The drawing and the killing of the fish is part of Angelus' mental torture of his victims, killing is an art-form to him "No. A real kill. A good kill. It takes pure artistry." The end-goal is always to kill Buffy and all her friends, he just goes the long way around!!

When Darla first gets turned by Dru, yeah she is confused I agree but I don't think it's because she wants to stay human or wants that purity pf a human death...she just doesn't understand why everything's happened the way it has or why it was Dru.

no i think it's something more than that, he kills jenny straight off and sets her up, he tortured dru by killing her family and then literally torturing her, he doesn't take the long way round with them

I guess the darla thing can be interpretated differently

with jennt didnt he have to get her out of the way quickly, will all his other kills weve seen a reasoning behind it as to why it was done (theresa, because he was to torment buffy) but ost of his kills have been planned out to break them down first, giles even states it at some point, but jenny was about to give him a soul so he had to do it fast but used it as an opportunity to torment buffy and peers!

Yes, but he still took the time to do his art with Jenny, because he left her in Giles bed, with the roses and the note, arranged. That was for pure mental torture.

I actually think Darla was ready to die human. She had pretty much accepted it.

We don't really know how long it took Angelus to kill off all Dru's family do we, he could've done a whole family portrait for all we know! It is kinda the long way round though, he doesn't just kill Dru, he makes her nuts first.

As for Darla accepting human death...yeah she had as a human but once she's turned she's not that person anymore.